Brexit 5

So its the foreign tourists who are wrecking the NHS now. Always someone else to blame. WE all carry a card ensuring us that if taken ill we will be cared for medically in the EU.All the westen health services act for everyone in emergencies.
Leaving the EU is the most serious thing that the UK has done in years.
I cam imagine that in 20 year time someone will get the idea to join together for prosperity and defence.

And now the EU reprsentatives are not friendly.
We are not in the EU to be friendly but to get things done and organised. They are just doing their job and due to Brexit they have even more to do. We could be making progress in other directions if this blessed Brexit hadn't happened. We will need all our wits about us with Trump in place in the White House without having to spend hours and hours sorting out the nitty gritty of the Uk leaving. I hope the EU send them a bill for the immense costs of this mountain of legal work

Wilma.Firstly I'm sorry you have a degenerative condition. That's enough to worry about.I also understand many people are still very angry and upset about the vote of June 23rd,and will remain so to the point it seems they would rather sabotage any chance of moving forward with any sort of positivity and disparage any good news ,and there has been plenty.I hasten to add I'm not saying that's you.But it certainly applies to some posters on here.
DJ how do expect all what to be done ?A lot of it is already happening.Expanding new industries,starting to address misuse of our NHS by health tourists and no doubt a lot of groundwork going on reguarding trade negotiations .And I will reitterate I never expected withdrawal from the EU to happen in a matter of months,but in years so no hands up in horror here either..But longer post wouldn't suffice or satisfy so I will pass on that.Got a gripping TV prog to watch.Plus being referred to as 'she' sounds rather rude .Or at least that's what my mum lead me to believe.'who's she ?the cats mother'(never really understood that one ?!)

roses I have been lurking for a while instead of posting because I was spending too much time on here.

I don't think all Brexiters are idiots, far from it. But I do think many people don't realise that their lives will not improve any time soon, that just the opposite will happen. The government (of any colour) will struggle to govern as it manages leaving the EU and life outside of the it. The number of JAMs will grow and the government will throw them crumbs as it battles on. This retirement generation will be the last to experience the level of security (many struggle now).

Dire predictions? Yes, and that's before Article 50 has been triggered. People should remember that the UK is still one of the wealthiest countries in the world and that it is a political choice how much is spent on public services of any kind.

Which leavers 'throw up their hands in horror' durhamjen? And who in their right mind believes there's any money coming back?

Remainers really do underestimate the intelligence of most Leave voters.

Doesn't want much, either, does she?
Whenever anyone says it will take at least ten years, leavers throw up their hands in horror. They want their money back now.

Washerwoman, how do you expect all that to be done?

I only made that post because there seems to be a tendency to take offence at everything Brexiters do or say which seems very childish. It's politics. Of course people will feel rubbed up the wrong way when things aren't going the way they want.

Although, as washerwoman has said, disaster hasn't happened yet.

The press is reporting that Boris Johnson "insulted" Italy and Italians when he said that if Britain doesn't get a decent trading deal with Italy, then Italy will sell less prosecco to Brits. What's insulting about that? It looks like common sense to me.

The Italian he said it to is reported to have retorted in kind. Sounds like perfectly normal bargaining tactics from both sides to me.

Until someone can explain what the insult was, anyhow.

Well said, Washerwoman.

Didn't expect' massive 'economic growth ,happy with steady sustained growth after some initial bumps along the way but despite dire predictions there have been many positives since the referendum,companies continuing comittment to invest.Understand that growth is predicted to be down next year,still I believe on a par with Germany and better than France and Italy.No immediate recession or financial meltdown.
Tourism,construction and many other industries reporting very healthy increases.etc.etc.Trade deals to be done globally.
Dont expect 'no ' migration.Want controlled immigration that extends the skills and talents coming into the country,whilst offering asylum to those in genuine need,whilst recognising our infrastructure and NHS and schools etc have finite resources.
Don't expect a 'revival' in British industry in the old traditional sense, more a continuing expansion of our newer creative and innovative industries that are all flourishing such as the film industry,creative and tech business to name a few. Growth in smaller ,entrepreneurial startups.Seen plenty of evidence of that myself at local business networking meet ups.
Live in a former coal mining area and never once expected the pits would open up again .Prefer coffee to tea.Brought up C of E ,don't attend church but realise vicars have moved with the times and often cover services in more than one parish. No village greens around here ,and think bunting is twee.And go back to the days of the Empire.No thanks.
Didn't expect negotiations and extracating ourselves the EU to happen 'quickly' after 40 years,but constantly being told however how difficult they are going to make it for us only makes me regret we ever got involved in the first place.
Very modest pension and plans for retirement here also,but very appreciative both in good health so far, although having just lost a close relative to cancer very suddenly,take nothing for granted.

Ana
Wilma nice to see you posting again, haven't noticed your comments for ages?

It does, but I have accepted the situation. I just can't see what's going on and that's what concerns me. I realise I am not alone in this.

Philip Hammond has just announced the Autumn Statement and the future fills me with dread. As someone in their 50s with a degenerative disease that leaves me unable to work, I worry about growing old now. Our plans for retirement were already modest and I was always the glass half full to my DH's glass half empty. Don't know what else to say.

I take it your sympathies lie with the Remain voters, Wilma.

Pretty good this. This comment from the @FT comments page has gone viral because it nails the remainer/leaver Brexit row.

"So, this is how the debate reads so far. I kid you not, it’s practically verbatim:

Remainers (left holding the Brexit baby after the Leavers… left) “WTF?”

Leavers “We voted Brexit, now You Remainers need to implement it”

Remainers “But it’s not possible!”

Leavers “The People Have Spoken. Therefore it is possible. You just have to think positively.”

Remainers “And do what exactly?”

Leavers “Come up with a Plan that will leave us all better off outside the EU than in it”

Remainers “But it’s not possible!”

Leavers “Quit with the negative vibes. The People Have Spoken.”

Remainers “But even you don’t know how!”

Leavers “That’s your problem, we’ve done our bit and voted, we’re going to sit here and eat popcorn and watch as you do it.”

Remainers “Shouldn’t you do it?”

Leavers “It’s not up to us to work out the detail, it’s up to you experts.”

Remainers “I thought you’d had enough of experts”

Leavers “Remain experts.”

Remainers “There are no Leave experts”

Leavers “Then you’ll have to do it then. Oh, and by the way, no dragging your feet or complaining about it, because if you do a deal we don’t want, we’ll eat you alive.”

Remainers “But you don’t know what you want!”

Leavers “We want massive economic growth, no migration, free trade with the EU and every other country, on our terms, the revival of British industry, re-open the coal mines, tea and vicars on every village green, some bunting, and maybe restoration of the empire.”

Remainers “You’re delusional.”

Leavers “We’re a delusional majority. DEMOCRACY! So do the thing that isn’t possible, very quickly, and give all Leavers what they want, even though they don’t know what they want, and ignore the 16 million other voters who disagree. They’re tight trouser latte-sipping hipsters who whine all the time, who cares.”

daphedill; This article from The Guardian, not the Telegraph, may give a clue to why many of us are sceptical whatever is said about the EU's democratic structure.

www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/27/eu-democratic-bandwagon-juncker-president-wanted

As you rightly say, Junker is supposed to be an administrator but he sometimes acts like a dictator when diplomacy is required. Both Britain and the EU would be better off negotiating an amicable divorce but, not for the first time, the EU is putting politics above economics and making a mistake on both.

I don't know whether leaving the EU will bring people together or drive them further apart. I do fear an Election over Parliament's effective rejection of the Referendum result would risk greater extremism and produce a result that the vaste majority of Remain and Leave would not want.

We can agree that more equality and longer term strategies would be a good thing, something we have lacked for 20 years, perhaps because the EU was the long-term strategy.

If you start a petition, dd, I'll sign it.

Daphne.

Please could the PM arrange for Farage to be transported to Tristan da Cunha in an unseaworthy dinghy.

Cameron actually got quite a bit from his discussions, including a delay in paying benefits to EU citizens for four years. The UK has always been in a favoured position, because it isn't in the Eurozone or Schengen. If the UK tries to crawl back in the future, you can bet anything you like that it won't be granted those favours. Juncker was democratically elected, whatever the Telegraph claimed.

Juncker isn't the MPs' leader. He isn't even the MEPs' leader. He is the democratically elected President of the European Commission, which is the executive branch of the EU. It advises on legislation, but doesn't vote. MEPs, of which the UK has more than almost any other country, votes on legislation and in many cases has the power of veto. MEPs are elected by PR, so are more democratic than the Houses of Parliament. I just don't get this claim that the EU isn't democratic.

There are a lot of unanswered questions about the status of the referendum and the conduct of those involved in the campaign. The facts were there, but drowned out by propaganda, appeals to the emotions and misleading information (lies). I would feel more confident about the future, if I were convinced that everybody knew how the EU works and what they were voting for. I'm not convinced and, sadly, people still come out with stuff which shows that they don't understand the EU and the consequences of leaving.

Cunco, do you honestly think that leaving the EU will remove the 'wedge' between Parliament and the people? I don't see it. The country as a whole is going to be worse off, which will mean managing the economy better for all, not just a minority. One way or the other, many people are going to be losers (almost certainly those already at the bottom of the pile), which will alienate people even more. Voting against the EU wasn't the answer. Whether or not the UK is in the EU, it needs a government which cares more about equality and has long-term strategies.

Much as I may not like the outcome of our elections sometimes, our electorate can change our government every 5 years if it so wishes. We cannot change the EU. From the Referendum debate in Parliament, many MPs said the EU needed to be reformed but none said how. David Cameron tried to get concessions from the EU and got very little, even when our membership of the EU was at stake.

David Cameron tried to prevent Mr Junker being elected and again failed. I remember reading reports of Junker's election in both Telegraph and Guardian at the time. Both concluded that his election was undemocratic although, inevitably one praised Cameron for trying and one blamed Cameron for making things worse.

I viewed the Referendum vote as a choice between a rock and a hard place. I thought both campaigns were terrible and a chance for a discussion about the EU and our future in the EU but outside the Eurozone missed.

The Eurozone, which I have recently heard described as wobbly as a 3-legged table, will only survive if more economic and banking powers are centralised in an ever-closer union. Ultimately, our decision is all-in or all-out and that is where we have to make our choice. Mine has always been out.

David Davis obviously pissed off everyone he met yesterday. They all talked about everything he'd said. Thus revealing just how daft the PM's stance is about keeping cards close to chest and not revealing "strategy".
He made a silly quip about how they'd got on splendidly because the other guy raced classic British cars!
Truth of the matter is that Cameron has left the UK high and dry. No canoe, let alone a paddle. No power at the "negotiating table". Anything they did broker could be vetoed by just one EU country. Pity nobody read Article 50 before Cameron recklessly promised a referendum. Is there an opposite to being made a Lord? A posting as governors of Tristan da Cuna? Oh no, the PM has probably got Farage pencilled in for that one.

Cunco please could you explain what about the EU is undemocratic? The Parliament is made up of elected MEPs and each govt has a vote and a veto when it comes to legislation etc. They have far less beaurocrats (office workers/civil servants) than the UK for a much larger area and population. They act in exactly the same way as the Civil Service here and are asked by the elected members or the nations to look into certain subjects and formal ideas and legislation.
At the moment all the UK is doing is absolutely annoying the rest of the EU by their behaviour and what they are saying. Boris and Nigel continue to make us look foolish with their lack of knowledge of the EU and how it works and the rules. They are a laughing stock of the Parliament along with David Davis. I feel sorry for the more rational British MEPs who must be putting up with quite a lot.
It may well be that the UK will manage well outside the EU but reading about the obstacles in the way of getting trade agreements in place it will take a long long time during which it is very unclear what the country will do do - except rack up a lot more National Debt - that is if we are able to keep on borrowing.

MaizieD: I haven't seen it but I can accept that MPs were given a briefing document saying the Referendum was only advisory. So, why did they not debate it as such? Why did they pretend that it was binding and not a glorified opinion poll?

If MPs wanted to drive an even bigger wedge between Parliament and the people, they could hardly have conceived of a better plan. Now, many are making matters worse by lumping Leavers into dreadful ignorant and racist stereotype, trying to present themselves as the only home of tolerance and liberal values.

I have always thought myself tolerant and liberal. It's just that I think the EU (not Europe) is bureaucratic, undemocratic and, sadly, failing. Once, I was thought Left-Wing, now Right-Wing but I have never felt comfortable with either label.

I have often wondered, just what is it about Mr Junker that MPs find appealing as a leader? Given the arrogance and unfriendliness of Mr Junker and other EU spokesmen since the Referendum, I wonder if a Referendum would now produce an even more emphatic result.

It is very hard to understand what Boris is up to. He seems like a completely feckless and irresponsible idiot running around stirring up trouble wherever he fancies. Let's not forget that he fed the public lies about the EU years ago when he was supposed to be reporting on the EU.Just to amuse himself, it seems. But lies which endured...

Are there any Boris lovers on here who can convince us that he is sane and sensible?

Parliament voted for a referendum which they understood to be advisory; we all know this as we have all, surely, seen the relevant section in the briefing paper they were given on it.

It was only after the bill had been passed that the promise of abiding by the result was made in that leaflet.

Though why the bill was nodded through without proper scrutiny and an insistence on more stringent conditions for observing the result, such as a certain percentage of voter turnout and a much larger majority either for or against, is puzzling. Except that I think that all the parties thought that Remain would win.