The cost of Brexit for us; the ordinary people

???????

For me the point is that in this post referendum, pre-Brexit time, it is so necessary that we arrive at a position on which the whole country can agree
whitewave I thought I was a 'glass half full' kind of person but even I can see a squadron of flying pigs

(sorry for the mixed metaphors!! )

I don't think that Mair or anyone would argue that we did not need any immigrants Jess we do, and a lot of countries do.What we need to be able to do is set our own limits, and decide where we will encourage immigrants to come from.

Not at all ww I just wondered why you had mentioned those two qualities in particular.
It would be a huge mistake to try and please everybody....just what best outcome we can get by negotiation.

Are you aware Mair that when Gove was Sec of State for education he pretty much banned LAs in England from building any new schools?
From Wikip: "The Education Act 2011 gave rise to the academy/free school presumption; Government advice which clarified that any local authority in need of a new school must in most circumstances seek proposals for an academy or free school,[16] with a traditional community school only being allowed if no suitable free school or academy is proposed.[17]"
This was because of the bee in his bonnet that state-funded "free schools" were going to miraculously transform education standards in the UK. You can't spirit a free school out of the air even if you, as an LA, go looking for a group of people that want to start one.
So a local authority with expanding need would have, at best, a two/three year delay while searching for people who wanted to start a free school and then waiting for the long-winded application process to be complete before they could even begin to plan a new school of their own. And there would be no guarantee that the free school would actually want to take the numbers and the age groups that were in need of places. Many (110 to be precise) of the Free Schools that did start up, at great public expense, are still in unsatisfactory temporary accommodation - local halls etc
www.tes.com/news/school-news/breaking-news/exclusive-unseemly-rush-means-third-free-schools-are-temporary-sites
The other factor is that many existing schools became academies which meant they could limit the number of places they offered. Or reduce the places if they were a converter academy.
Against this crazy mismanagement by the secretary of state it is laughable to blame the immigrants.
"pressure on the NHS" is far to broad brush to make any sense. The poor old battered under-funded NHS. Yes, in some areas obstetric departments are very busy and many of the mothers are not UK born. But then neither are the staff.
Yes I am unashamedly pro-immigrant. The overwhelming majority come here to work and their commitment and expertise is desperately needed. Immigrants are twice as likely to have higher qualifications as Uk born.
Don't know if you have been to London lately but next time you do, imagine a what it would be like if the "immigrants" all downed tools for a day. No hotels open. No restaurants or coffee bars and the transport system would not be working. Mess accumulating everywhere. A and Es closed and patients un-cared for in their beds. etc etc
All four of my great-grandfathers were economic migrants who left England to work in S Wales. They also fathered a lot of children. Their descendants achieved all kinds of things and contributed to society in many ways.
With the fertility rate dropping so steadily for UK born women we are really going to need immigrants and the children of immigrants to work, pay taxes and look after us in our dotage.

We can however have a position where the wishes of both sides of the debate have been taken into consideration. The vote was too tight to ignore half of the country. As I indicated above I can certainly agree (much to my surprise) with Fox over the Customs Union. Of course his position over free trade is looking precarious, but he is not the only member of the Brexit mob and I am sure others may well modify this stance.

"intelligence and integrity" I am sure you are playing devils advocate there rose.

I mean ww what did you have in mind?

Carrying it out with intelligence and integrity....?In what way precisely?

We can't have a position though that the whole country will agree on.The vote is to leave the EU, now that has to be done, and it's up to the Government of the day to get the best deal, ( not uncle tom cobbley and all )but it will have to have to include setting our own numbers for immigration.

For me the point is that in this post referendum, pre-Brexit time, it is so necessary that we arrive at a position on which the whole country can agree, and in order to do so we can't possibly make the error made at the referendum when there was so much lying and decisions based on false "facts".

If we fail to carry Brexit out with integrity and intelligence, that ensures that all of the UK can gain some benefit from the process then we just as well call it a day. It is essential that the division is healed, even May appears to have the wit to understand that, although whether her actions prove this to be the case remains to be seen.

No doubt GracesGran (Mk2) will be here soon to give us the benefit of her Opinion.

Perhaps Remainers facts are better than Leavers facts, ( for some.)

Of course there is dd .....NOT!

A groan from me too.

No, Ana, not 'oh dear' because somebody disagrees with Remainers. 'Oh dear' because there's so much which is so wrong in the post.

My sentiments exactly ana

Groan...

No! The fact that "facts" are presented as facts. Post truth anyone?

Oh dear what? The fact that someone's actually disagreed with the Remain lot on here?

Oh dear

Brilliant post Mair, I wish I was as articulate.

JessM said
Mair it is not true that "Immigrants are putting HUGE pressure" on schools and the NHS. That is a blatant distortion of a complex picture.

Of course "huge" is a relative term to some extent, and of course pro immigrationists will dispute it, but given that at the end of the nineties there was predicted to be a downturn in demand for school places, so much so that in my own area there was public consultation over possible school closures in the early noughties, while now parents are struggling to get school places despite new schools being built ('choice' has gone out of the window) and and over a quarter of births are to mothers born outside the UK (27% in 2014 ONS) it is absolutely correct to say that immigrants are putting huge pressure on schools and the NHS.

And its not just a case of numbers, immigrants, due to language issues, suck up more resources than natives do. ESOL children in schools require specialist language teaching and are also now provided with 'bilingual assistants' who of course, are unlikely to be British people!

As for interpretors it continues to be an expensive problem for the NHS the police and local authorities. It is absolute MADNESS that immigrants themselves ar not made to pay for these services.

And in a debate on leaving the EU I suggest you make it clear which "immigrants" you are blaming.
I am not "blaming immigrants" I am blaming stupid British people and politicians who want this to continue! Of course immigrants are going to take advantage of a country that is crazy enough not to put its own people first, and who can blame them?

I am speaking of course of all immigrants, but since Polish people are the ethnic group producing the largest number of babies, the EU plays a hug part in the problem.

Bear in mind too large numbers of non Native European BMEs come here on an EU passport, Dutch Somalis, Maghrebis and Africans from France, Brazilians from Spain (Spain has given at least three amnesties to illegal south Americans)

The biggest impact on the NHS in terms of demand, by far, is the ageing population
Which is as it should be. One expects older people to make more demands on the NHS. But life expectancy has not suddenly leaped up (see link), and it is the combination of an ageing population coupled with a massive population increase (entirely caused by immigration) that has changed a difficult situation into a critical one.

webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20160105160709/http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/resources/lechart_tcm77-234038.png

and the biggest problem is that Hunt is determined to undermine it, by not recognising this in its funding
Subjective opinion only.

Honestly dj, you really sound very silly particularly your comment about roses, perhaps you're hung over from the festivities!!! People on here who voted to leave have given their reasons and what they hope for again and again ad nauseam! The fact that that you either don't believe or can't understand what we mean is not our fault and we really cannot keep on and on giving our explanation, it's getting tedious to say the least!!

I don't know djen why don't you run off to HQ and ask them?

'guru'...ha,ha,ha!