The cost of Brexit for us; the ordinary people

mair let me assist you. You debate an issue with someone by rebutting their argument - I am setting out my stall - now over to you.

Etiquette didn't stop a poster on here accusing Mair of using a muderers name or being a troll. Some posters seem to have lot to say when it suits them but when asked a direct question can't answer it

This is true, although tbf to WW she is one of the more polite of the pro mass immigration posters, which is why I have been happy to answer her questions when possible.

Now I realise she just wants a one way street.

That's normal. The pro mass immigration stance in an overcrowded country is indefensible. This is why they increasingly resort to claims to 'moral' superiority. We want it because it's "right".
So their "morality" trumps that of the majority!
"We" are right and you are wrong you horrible racist xenophobes!
It's no wonder WW is frightened of being edged into this corral.

mair You are fundamentally misunderstanding my argument over immigration. I have outlined what I see as the main issues, and then went on to focus on one concerning demography/immigration, arguing that the two are absolutely linked. I then went on to argue that all countries with a particular demographic profile need immigration in order to keep a balanced profile.

My arguments then suggest that I feel a certain level of immigration will be essential, however to begin to try to put a figure on that means that I shall need to look at at the very least the other two issues I have outlined, in order to have an informed decision as I possibly can.

mair on GN we comment and ask questions of each other, but your attitude amounts to interrogation I am afraid.

I asked many questions of yourself but you haven't chosen to answer them. That is your prerogative, but etiquette prevents me from interrogating you and I would ask the same of you.

You certainly have WW, so many questions that I have lost track, especially as you are assisted by a little 'interrogation team', and yet I have answered many and without being rude.

I have asked you a few simple direct questions and after much prevaricating you now refuse point blank to answer.

I dont think debate is possible with someone who refuses to disclose her own stance but expects to enjoy the right to criticize and question other posters.

I will draw my own conclusion, which is that your own position is indefensible.

Not me though, and all I am asking is that I am given the same respect.

Etiquette didn't stop a poster on here accusing Mair of using a muderers name or being a troll. Some posters seem to have lot to say when it suits them but when asked a direct question can't answer it.

mair on GN we comment and ask questions of each other, but your attitude amounts to interrogation I am afraid.

I asked many questions of yourself but you haven't chosen to answer them. That is your prerogative, but etiquette prevents me from interrogating you and I would ask the same of you.

I will comment more on immigration as I see fit, if there is something about what I say you consider wrong or with which you disagree -as I do with your comments - please feel free to put your view across. However I shall not be bullied, be sure of that.

Daphne rudely accuses me of telling lies!

Mair,
Current net immigration is NOT 600,000 a year. Please stop telling lies!

Which Daphne if you actually read properly you would have realised wasnt what I said!

Current levels of immigration are around 600,000 a year. That is of course GROSS immigration.

Many people do not understand what these figures mean and assume

Net immigration = Number of immigrants who arrive - number of immigrants who leave

This is not the case.

Firstly immigration figures involve no counting in and out. They are very crude estimates based on voluntary random surveys carried out just a couple of weeks a year at various ports and airports when those who are wiling are asked about their intntions. Obviously someone who has come here allgdly for a months holiday but intends to stay on illegally is NOT going to be volunteering this information.

Secondly:
Net immigration = Estimates of those coming in for three months or more - Estimates of all leaving for three months or more, most of whom are British citizens.

Since Brits leaving is an entirely separate process to immigration, it is in fact misleading to conflate the figures in this way. Its alo the case that many, probably most of the exiting Brits are not going to become permanent immigrants in the countries they are going to. Students on gap years will b included for example and th hundreds of Britons who take temporary work teaching English abroad, or working for charities overseas. People coming here longer term are far more likely to remain for ever.

Are the Schengen Agreement 'suspensions' and border passport controls which were re instated still in place?

The Schengen Agreement (open borders) is a bone of contention in many countries is it not?

Of course for any undocumented immigrant who is willing to go off piste and cross a border by a non transport route there are hundreds of miles of woodland and farmland which is only casually patrolled particularly along the porous eastern borders of the EU, but even between EU countries.

Think I need a typing course.

Grrr, short!

Shirt answer Alie..... yes! probably a bloody high one!

Short answer to roses - both! as long as population increases we have to increase production.
But isn't there a cliff edge, somewhere in front???

www.nidirect.gov.uk/articles/benefits-for-non-uk-nationals-do-i-qualify

Tells you all here to limit argument but of course it will never be able to show fraudulent claims which will make a mockery of figures for the obvious reasons.

Anybody from the 27 EU countries can come here without a job.

...people on GN are not subject to interrogation and have the right not to reply.

Although we certainly have a couple of long-term members who often seem to forget that!

I didn't say that they would be given housing by the State, just that they can appear here with nothing fixed up beforehand.As many Eastern Europeans seem to do, living on the streets or crashing at the house of somebody that they know.All the Big Issue sellers where I live seem to be from Eastern Europe, and I wonder what happened to the people who were selling it up to recently.
Of course, if people turn up with children then the local authority will have to house them, even on a temporary basis.
We have very many well integrated and hard working immigrants here but we also have many of the other variety.Our SIL ( police) sees this on a regular basis.

Mair,

Current net immigration is NOT 600,000 a year. Please stop telling lies!

Whitewave is quite correct that the majority of immigrants come from non-EU countries or from Ireland. The UK has total control over those people and always has had control, but Theresa May chose not to bring the numbers down when she was Home Secretary and still doesn't seem to have a plan. How would Whitewave be able to second guess her?

I note you are a newbie and possibly don't realise that people on GN are not subject to interrogation and have the right not to reply.

roses, I'm not sure what you mean about EU immigrants with no job and housing. EU immigrants can come to the UK with no job, but they won't get JSA or housing. They will receive a very limited amount of JSA after three months, but can then be deported if they still haven't found work after six months. Cameron negotiated a strengthening of this position by making EU citizens wait four years paying into the system before getting access to the welfare system, but his negotiations were abandoned as a result of the referendum.

WW said

I am sorry that this is only a partial answer to your question, as you must now be clear how complicated the whole issue is and we haven't begun to explore the demographic/immigration issue in any depth let alone things like economic policy and social policy of successive governments.

Its not an answer at all.

I am well aware of the complexity of the issues around immigration but I feel that by dwelling on this you are avoiding my very straight forward questions regarding what YOU personally would like Britain to do about immigration and our future dmography?

Firstly to keep it very simple:
Are you happy with current levels of immigration running at 600K a year, or what you like to reduce it?

If the former then at what level of population do you think some tighter controls should be applied, if ever? 80 million? !00 million? 200 million? Would you be unbothered if England at least became 100% urbanised a kind of mega Hong Kong?

If you do want to reduce immigration then are you happy with it being uncontrolled from the EU and if so how do you propose we reduce it?

Please try to be specific rather than sidetracking into issues of changing demographics ad why we allegdly "need" immigration (that could be the subject of another thread if you wish).

Certainly some of them became closed borders last Summer, Austria and Hungary?

A question was asked of Mair re Open Borders.

Are the Schengen Agreement 'suspensions' and border passport controls which were re instated still in place?

The Schengen Agreement (open borders) is a bone of contention in many countries is it not?

We probably have one of the best civil services there are....if not THE best.

Pleased to see May has appointed another civil servant and hasn't moved to politicise the civil service as the Brexit mob were clammering for.

We need to value our civil service