What is Populism

Nice succinct analysis at 9.44, GG2. Thanks

Why don't you think Corbyn or momentum are populist, Ankers?

"no way that anything other than a very small society can function without some form of hierarchy" which in our system is achieved by the whole population voting for representatives.

The populism currently popular () is just a way of hopeful politicians saying "Don't vote for the elite in power at the moment, vote for me instead" - so as to get themselves into the "elite" slot instead.

If they push that hard enough, they don't need to bother forming alternative policies, strategies and tactics and calculating what the results of all the possibilities would be. They just have to say "We know what you all want, and we will make it all happen"

Once they get the power, of course, they find that it is not as easy as they thought to create Eden.

Yes, Elegran, that's what I was trying to say. That's why I think current popular populism is hypocritical. I don't think it's genuine grassroots revolution. It's exploitation of disaffection for a wannabe alternative elite's ends.

I think one way to look at that is to ask what populist movement that has actually got into power has genuinely assisted the common people for a sustained length of time?

I suppose some might argue Castro.

Problems also occur when the populist press attempts to undermine the law (judges) and civil servants. The alternative is anarchy, which leaves a vacuum to be filled by some force, over which the 'people' have no control. That's how anarchists (usually portrayed as 'left wing') and libertarians ('right wing') come full circle.

Castro was a bit of an enigma. He almost certainly started off as a populist - or rather a nationalist opposed to the US - but he was also a Marxist. Marxism uses a highly centralised state to achieve its aims.

Yes, DD populism is picking up on the atmosphere of dissatisfaction with "life" (much of which is to a large extent a part of a the human condition and very complicated and intricate global interaction and competition going back centuries) and simplifying it into "Your problems are all caused by the background of your leaders. Get rid of them and there will never be poverty, discrimination, recession, illness, unhappiness of any kind, ever again". Well, not until the next batch of leaders have tried and failed to untangle the many knotted threads of circumstances and causes.

I agree. Anybody who has ever been to an open meeting of a parish/town council can see that happening. People all have some complaint about potholes, wheelie bins, street lighting, litter, graffiti and loads of other grievances. They shout to have their voices heard, but as soon as somebody asks what should be done about it, they don't have any answers.

Everyone who has ever had the misfortune to serve on a committee will recognise the syndrome. All complaints and whinges from the members are directed at the curent committee.

People are using the kitchen and not tidying up after themselves? Tell the committee, who post a notice on the kitchen wall reminding everyone that mugs should be washed, dried and put away after use, all rubbish put into the appropriate bin, and the biscuit tin replenished when empty.

People don't aim very well in the gents loo, the seats and floor get wet, it smells, the cleaner cleans early mornings so by evening it is revolting. The cleaner complains about the filthy members and threatens to leave. Complaints are made about the cleaner being surly. Tell the committee. A notice goes up reminding users that they should leave the loos in a condition they would like to find it. The cleaner gets a payrise.

Subscriptions have to be put up after several years at a standstill. Complaints are made to the committee that there must be wastage on unnecessary expenses, and surely would be kept down if users paid 20p into a tin each time they took a biscuit. Committee put a notice to this effect on the biscuit tin.

At the next AGM, a motion is put forward - and passed - by disatisfied members that since they are paying so much in subscriptions, they should not have to also shell out for a measly biscuit with their cuppa - and the quality of biscuits has gone down since this committee was voted in.

Another motion is put forward - and passed - expressing concern at the state of the kitchen and demanding that it be remodelled to be more modern and labour-saving, with a dishwasher to eliminate mug-washing and a new system of environmentally friendly recycling bins.

Kitchen users are insulted by the implication that they need to be lectured on hygeine and tidyness. Users of the gents loos are insulted at being lectured on bathroom etiquette. There are mutterings of "These people on the committee like to boss us about. Who do they think they are, telling us what to do? We need a change, with things run for the benefit of us ordinary members and not just to suit this clique"

A completely different committee is elected, to the relief of the outgoing ones. The new committee promises a fresh start, and a wonderful new organisation. Spending priorities will be changed, subscriptions lowered, ther constitution amended.

And so the whole circuit starts again.

That brought a smile to my face, Elegran. I see you've attended the same kind of meetings I have.

I wrote on another thread about a group, which is trying to reinstate some local NHS services. I'm not on the committee and I have much admiration for the people who do serve on it.

We have open meetings, which a few dozen people attend. Most of them come up with anecdotes about how the system isn't working. The person organising the group then asks whether anybody knows anything about budgets or how systems work, so that we can make our case to the relevant people. Nobody does know anything and they start to blame the government, the council or just about anybody else. Fortunately, there are two people who have worked for the NHS in management roles and they work hard to produce some kind of business plan - but it's never enough or quick enough!

I can't imagine what an 'open meeting' for 60 million people on a range of issues would be like.

Ah but it wouldn't necessarily be a meeting of 60 million it would be a meeting of one - the leader who knows exactly what the "people" need

Elegran, thanks for bringing a smile to my face when I read your post about what we do when dissatisfaction rules in our work places. Daphnedill and whitewave, many many thanks for your contributions to this very interesting discussion. I have read the thread, catching up as it has developed and I hope I haven't missed this but, what about the Labour government after WW2. Was that a populist movement.

I don't think it counts, because the Attlee government was voted into power by the established processes, although I don't think Churchill was very impressed by the decision of the ungrateful plebs.

The poll tax riots would possibly count as a populist movement. Although they didn't directly lead to a change in government, they led to a change in policy.

Oh yes the poll tax riots definitely count as a populist movement.
I remain puzzled that we haven't had a similar movement against the bedroom tax.

Lack of power. We could withhold the poll tax, but people on benefits can't do so without unleashing all sorts of immediate retribution.

I think Ana's right. Withholding 'bedroom tax' would result in quite swift eviction. It's only a minority affected by the bedroom tax, whereas the poll tax affected millions.

People being affected by any benefits cuts don't have much leverage.

She knows what we don't need as well, whitewave, and it's not a binary choice, although that is what put her where she is.

A minority of 660,000 claimants, which means probably two to three million people. Quite a large minority.

Yes, it is a large minority, but even large minorities don't win in a FPTP system. That's why democracy has been called "tyranny by the majority" (Alexis de Tocqueville). Democracies always need protection for minorities, which is why I don't accept that 'democracy' is the be all and end all of a political system.

Theresa May isn't where she is from binary choice. She's where she is, because everybody else dropped out.

I suspect that in fifty years or so, historians will write chapters about our current era with the title "Democracy in Crisis". Who knows where it will all lead?

MaizieD - I dont happen to think that Corbyn is authoritarian. I think he is a bit the puppet on the string of others. And he definitely is not Nationalist.

momentum, as far as I know are not nationalist either.

They shout to have their voices heard, but as soon as somebody asks what should be done about it, they don't have any answers.

It isnt their job too.
And if those in office dont have the answers, then they may be the wrong people for the job.

I think one way to look at that is to ask what populist movement that has actually got into power has genuinely assisted the common people for a sustained length of time?

It doesnt have to be for a sustained period of time. It may have to be only enough time for things to change.

The changes both in the Republican Party and the Democratic party are already, and have already changed. And Trump is not even the President yet.

Yes, DD populism is picking up on the atmosphere of dissatisfaction with "life" (much of which is to a large extent a part of a the human condition and very complicated and intricate global interaction and competition going back centuries) and simplifying it into "Your problems are all caused by the background of your leaders. Get rid of them and there will never be poverty, discrimination, recession, illness, unhappiness of any kind, ever again

I doubt if anyone thinks that. Ever.