Humanitarian Crisis in UK

The problem with the hospital on last night, St Mary's I think, was that as well as functioning as a specialised trauma hospital it had to function in every other area too.

With only 16 ICU beds that was obviously too few. They had the staff, the expertise, the theatres, but again it was a question of beds. And thus certainly wasn't a case of the elderly clogging up the system.

I accept that there are serious, very serious, problems within the NHS. But I think it was quite wrong of the Red Cross to call the current situation a humanitarian crisis. Such talk is excessive. A humanitarian crisis is when a country is failing to get basics like food and water to its people, a humanitarian crisis describes a war zone or disaster zone. The Red Cross knows this full well.

There is far too much exaggeration in news stories.

Reading news reports, day after day, what strikes me is the repeated claim that people cannot get appointments with their GP. That seems to me to be the fundamental problem.

Another thing that strikes me is this: if you can wait twelve hours for treatment in a corridor on a hospital trolley, why couldn't you wait twelve hours in bed or wrapped up on the sofa at home? I know any politician who says there are many people at A&E who don't need to be there gets slammed for saying it, but something that can wait twelve hours isn't an emergency, is it?

Do I need to revise my internal definition of emergency?

I couldn't be twelve hours anywhere without needing the loo several times. Just mentioning that as a practical consideration.

bags laying on a sofa with a heart attack whilst there is a bed sorted will very likely lead to your demise so I suppose that is one way of sorting the problem

When the fact that we spend less per capita on health care than other European countries is brought up, one doesn't hear about any problems other countries have. What are their hospital emergency rooms like? Are their hospitals short of beds? what are waiting times like, etc?

Not saying I don't agree that better funding, better organisation, etc wouldn't make a difference here (I'm sure they would), but the simple comparison of spending is not enough to make a balanced judgement about whether our NHS is particularly worse than in other European countries. Have they, for instance, planned better for aging populations?

Don't be silly, ww. Heart attacks are emergencies. Read what I've written more carefully.

I know bags I was being facetious - slap my wrist.

I've actually experience A&E in France -crushed vertebrae after a fall, and it was a sea of calm peace and quiet. With piped music!!! Quite different to the experience in A&E here. It was a provincial hospital. I was charged 17euros and given a form for me to take to the town hall to reclaim, so in effect I was charged nothing -shock horror- all these people from the EU using our medical facilities I heard the French cry. I didn't bother to reclaim my 17 euros.

I'm glad you had good treatment in a French hospital when you needed it, ww. I've had good treatment in calm atmospheres in UK hospitals when I needed it too, as have other members of my family.

A few personal examples isn't really sufficient data. If we only used your good experience and mine, we'd be concluding that there simply wasn't a problem anywhere.

I suppose I'm really appealing to GN-ers with daily access to various European news media. What are different countries' own assessments of their health services? Are they as critical as we are?

Please note, I'm not saying there isn't plenty to criticise. I'm just looking for a real comaprison.

@Anya

That's the problem Addenbrooke's in Cambridge has too. It's three times as big as St Mary's, is the trauma centre for the East of England and a specialist centre for all sorts of illnesses. It was placed in special measures 18 months ago. It does amazing specialist work for a huge geographical area, but seems to bump locals off the lists. The huge area it covers also means that it has more bed blocking than average, because care in the community can't be found in isolated communities.

Once again, bed flow is a problem and leads to wasted resources. There need to be more community facilities to prevent people coming into hospital in the first place and provide facilities when people are discharged. The same message has been coming loud and clear from all sources for ages. While money might not solve the problems, making short term cuts has caused long term problems.

PS The criticism I'm talking about is of health care funding, management, and the political will behind it, not of doctors and nurses.

bags I won't repeat myself but if you can be assed look at the other NHS thread - I've outlined what a Tory MP and doctor said last night on Newsnight.

The labour government giving GP's a new contract cutting right back on their hours has caused much of the need for people going to A & E . If an unwell child who would choose to wait a week to see their GP or get to A & E same night

Bags there are some shortages in the French system such as a lack of GPs in remote rural areas (recent news reports every day for a week and strategies in place). From personal experience over ten years, we have waited a few weeks for non-urgent dermatology, otherwise always seen in a couple of weeks and no wait for x-ray, physio etc.
There are nowhere near the waiting times and from everything I have read measured outcomes are high. There are also rehabilitation centres and convalescent homes everywhere to avoid bed blocking. Several of my neighbours have had heart surgery followed by three weeks in convalescent home.

annie I have said this on the other thread, but it's worth repeating. Last night on Newsnight there was aTory MP and practising doctor -a chap- who said that the last time the NHS was properly funded was during the Blair/Brown era. That during this time the NHS made huge strides, but since the Tories have taken office , despite their rhetoric the NHS is being gradually run into the ground. And this from a Tory!!!!

Really good posts from you thatbags
The Red Cross have decided to come out with this 'humanitarian crisis' stuff for two reasons, either politicking or keeping their name in front of us all to be noticed.
They could have said 'overstretched at some times and in some hospitals with long waits for beds and A&E' but that wouldn't have got them any attention.
IMHO ( and not just me) anyone who pays tax will have to pay more tax pretty soon just to keep things on an even keel within the NHS.

FGS ! The NHS is not being run into the ground on purpose! Every year more is poured into it, but can people not see that more and more people are using it's services,until it bursts at the seams in many areas.

I think it was Anya who said the NHS should be a X party responsibility as it is so important, and she is right, then everybody would stop scoring political points off each other and get on with doing things properly.You can see from this thread alone all the
'Nah nah nah,evil Tories ' etc. And that's just a forum.

The evidence would suggest otherwise, roses. People can see very well what's happening (well, hopefully most can) - the NHS is underfunded compared with other major European countries and the US, or are you suggesting that these other countries are even more wasteful, which is why they need the extra money?

As Simon Stevens said yesterday, it's up to the government how much it wants to spend, but the public needs to accept that services will need to be cut, if it doesn't want to pay more. The reality is that expensive drugs and procedures for those not expected to live long might need to be cut or very premature babies won't be kept alive. I don't think anybody wants to see that, so we need to pay for them.

FGS!

The NHS can never be apolitical, because the allocation of resources is involved, which is a political issue and always will be. Deciding how much is spent on what is a role of government.

I think the point is often underemphasised that the cuts in funding to other services are adding to the problems. In my response to Bags at 8.40 I pointed out that France still has a network of rehabilitation centres and convalescent homes as well as district nurses and home helps. That makes a huge difference.

I dis say that I think more taxes will have to be paid (so that more money can go into the NHS) so yes, of course it needs more.I can also see that the present government is reluctant to tax more given the economic climate.
It's alright saying it's up to the government to decide how much it wants to spend.....it's our money, the government doesn't have any, and it's a balancing act how public spending goes to cover everything.Besides, Stevens did advise how much money the NHS needed for this year.There are some arguments about this at the moment.
Things will have to change radically one way or the other, but this notion that somehow a mean government is refusing to pay up whilst sitting on a vast heap of gold like a dragon is well, yes FGS actually.
The NHS should never have been a political football.

Where there's a will there's a way....about the NHS becoming a X Party responsibility.
A committee from all Parties.

rose it wasn't me saying it is being run into the ground it was a Tory doctor, no good shooting the messenger the message remains and is out there for public consumption.

And it is totally immaterial the language used by the RC the point is there is a human crises as the two doctors on Newsnight said. It is a sideline to moan about the wording used, it is the problem that needs addressing, and I argue that May is failing to do so, particularly when she talks about a small level if incidents!!!! What planet is she on?

I agree with the comment that it's up to the government of the day how much is spent on public services. But it's up to us as voters to choose the government. I presume people vote for a Tory government because they believe, amongst other things, that public spending needs to be cut. Isn't reducing taxation and oublis spending a basic tenet of British Conservatism (note the capital C)? I've always thought it was.

As a nation, we've voted in a Conservative government so we can hardly be surprised that that's what we're getting.

I think the vote for a Conservative government in 2015 is much more complex than what I've said above, but all that is a factor, along with not very attractive alternatives. Sad though it is to have to admit it, Labour really needs to up its game to have any chance of electoral success in the foreseeable future.

I guess I'm saying, what do people expect from a Tory government? It does rather look as if what we should expect is exactly what we're getting.

Thanks for the info, mamie. It does look as if we need to fund more rehabilitation centres and also care homes.

My brother spent some months in a rehabilitation centre in Oxford after a horrendous accident and much surgery and care in ICU. So we can do it if the will is there.