UK govt. - effective opposition?

No one would deny Gordon Brown his domestic virtues, nor do other than admire his dignity in defeat and retreat away from the limelight to work for others rather than monetary gain. BUT, as a leader he was a disaster.

If a very private person chooses to enter the public arena for whatever reason they must accept that they have to develop the skills of laying it out to the public and this was a skill Brown never developed, and always gave the impression he couldn't be bothered to try to develop. He seemed to lack a feel for people en masse.

What individuals thought they were voting for when they voted in the referendum is irrelevant, in any election/referendum, most of the voters are voting for different things while usually splitting their votes between one of two parties. When Guardian journalists vote Labour are they really voting for exactly the same thing as the long term unemployed in an unemployment black spot also voting Labour? I doubt it.

Democracy works in a rough and ready fashion. It is not the ideal solution but do you know of anything better? A simple question was asked with a Yes/No answer. The government goes on that vote and that is it.

I doubt the result would be any different even if there was another popular vote after the terms are agreed. Attitudes are so entrenched and not based on reason - on either side.

It should be easy for Labour since the Tories are so unpopular- never a better time for them and yet they are hampered by their leader. I don't care what the press say - he irritates me that he is inflexible and what he thinks always comes first.
His heart was never staying in the EU, if he had put his back into the campaign we might not be in this mess. Now we only have the Lib Dems as an opposition to Brexit.
Anyway the by elections will be a good indication of how Labour are doing- not well is my guess.

Daphne, Brown couldn't do tv, and you are so right, the Tories failed to get an overall majority by twenty seats , this was the second election after the Iraq war

...but Leticia, the Tories are NOT so unpopular, they have a massive lead over Labour in the polls.

Don't know about the Tories being 'so unpopular', a double-digit lead in the polls doesn't indicate that!

I disagree that it doesn't matter what people thought they were voting for in the referendum.

In an election, people vote for a 'best fit'. I'm guessing that only die-hard party supporters agree with everything a party has in its manifesto. I think they probably know that 'events' might turn out differently or parties don't keep their promises. Parties can be voted out in five years, if they don't do the job.

However, the referendum was different. For a start, it can't be changed after five years. More importantly, it seems clear that people voted for all sorts of different issues, most of which won't be realised, so only a minority are going to end up satisfied. The trouble with a simple Yes/No vote is that there isn't an option for 'Yes/No, but only if...'.

Unfortunately, the timing of negotiations means that the public can't have a say after Article 50 has been triggered, but I think it would be interesting (and I expect it will happen) to carry out a poll after two years when the arrangements are clearer.

If you think the Tories are popular you can't be reading the same things as me! They are doing well in the polls because there isn't much opposition when you have the Labour Party stuck with Jeremy Corbyn, who has a lot of very vocal supporters which hides the fact that a lot of us can't stand him.
The things that matter - Education, NHS and social care - are in a dire state and yet Labour are behind the Tories (who have caused the mess) in the polls!!

Michael Foot was a disaster MOnica, Brown was not . I will leave aside his so called domestic virtues, If Brown had stood against Blair for the leadership I believe he would have won, he stood aside for the party, how many politicians have or would do that . John Smith had such respect for Brown and it was said Smith saw Brown as the next leader .

The Tories are unpopular - the trouble is that Labour is even more unpopular and is losing support to UKIP, the LibDems and the 'can't be bothered to voter's.

Well, it's all shades of 'unpopular' then , with the Tories being less unpopular than Labour!

When Guardian journalists vote Labour are they really voting for exactly the same thing as the long term unemployed in an unemployment black spot also voting Labour? I doubt it.

Why would you doubt it, MOnica?

Isn't one of the reasons that they are Guardian journalists the fact that they are concerned about and wish to help and support people like the long term unemployed by raising awareness of them and campaigning for improvements to their lives?

If not, what do you think a Guardian journalist would be voting Labour for?

Are the Tories so far ahead because they are so popular or because Corbyn is so unpopular , I think the latter . Who takes notice of Corbyn ? apart from corbynites, his name isn't included in bi election flyers and Khan kept him at a distance during the London campaign. Where is his support within the labour oposition? QT last week we had Emily Thornberry, this week we have Diane Abbott, these are Lsbours big guns ?
. Cringe time

In the 2015 election, only 25% of those eligible to vote, voted Conservative. Maybe some didn't vote, because they knew their vote wouldn't make a difference, but it's not a mandate for the course the Conservatives are now taking. It's an open goal for Labour, but they don't have the strikers.

School budgets are being slashed, the NHS is being destroyed, social care is struggling, houses aren't being built - these aren't issues which affect not just the poorest and most vulnerable. Yet Corbyn waffles on about issues (which might be admirable) that people don't really care that much about.

What % of votes is needed for the winning party in an election, or during their time in office, to mean they are popular?

Don't forget that in the 2015 election it was the loss off all those seats in Scotland, to the SNP, which hit Labour so hard.

True tricia, and the rise of UKIP , they didn't take seats but they took the anti immigrant vote .

Even without the loss of the Scottish seats, Labour couldn't have formed a majority government.

The real problem for Labour is the loss of the traditional Labour seats in small towns, especially in the Midlands. Stoke and Copeland will be interesting.

I agree with you about Emily Thornberry and Diane Abbott. I just can't help myself, but I want to slap both of them and I suspect other people feel like that.

Two of the most irritating women in Westminster , and did Corbyn have to wear that bloody hat

No, of course Labour journalists aren't voting for the same reasons as a disabled person in an unemployment blackspot - nor is JK Rowling or Eddie Izzard. Does it matter? They care about a society which doesn't just support people like them. It would, I think, be a sad world if we only stood up for ourselves and people like us and had no principles.

We'd still deprive most of the country of a vote, send little boys up chimneys and treat women as chattels, if those with power only ever looked after their own. The fact that we care more about equality is one of the reasons the West likes to look down on societies in the Middle East, Asia and Africa.

Catching up with this thread, interesting discussion which so far seems to have avoided the descent into personal attacks that sometimes feature on political threads.
It's no secret that I finally left the LP some months ago because I don't believe in JC or the people he surrounds himself with. We don't have an effective opposition which is disastrous for the country given the continued austerity agenda. Theresa talks a good talk about equality etc, her speech on the steps of Number 10 could have been made a a Labour PM. So far, the talk isn't leading to improvements in public services or the NHS. Someone said earlier, this "elit" who are blamed for all our ills seem primarily to be made up of public servants and wealthy celebrities.
As a former public servant, who retired after almost 40 years commitment to trying to help the vulnerable, I am outraged that as a country we claim to be unable to afford to invest in education, housing, services for children/adults etc.
The LP needs to work with the other opposition parties to oppose this government.

We still live in a class-ridden society. Inverted snobbery is a bad as snobbery.

A reminder of the updated version of the famous Two Ronnies sketch:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JSahEDRjvw

I think that Labour is the only party that could ever take over government in this country although not until they have a massive internal shakeup. I was a fully paid up member of the LP until around 10 years ago when I refused to renew my membership. At that time DH and I were struggling with our small business and I felt that the LP only cared about the public sector and effectively saw anyone in business as an easy target. My feelings haven't changed except that with JC as a leader the LP are even deeper in the pockets of the public sector and moreover the unions who dictate their policies. I would love to see a LP that cared about all workers a LP that supported small enterprise (whom we are told are the back bone of the U.K.) and a LP that was not afraid to stand up to some of the very powerful unions who are able to hold the country to ransom for nothing except sheer greed.

That made me laugh ab ( did he have to wear that bloody hat!)