Article 50

When I called him an arch leaver, I meant leaving the country as opposed to Brexiteer who would want the UK to leave the EU.

He wants us to stay in the EU because of Virgin airways. The UK could lose out on EU and Transatlantic flights.

Anyone else seen this?

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/28/tory-rebellion-article-50-bill-mps-demand-white-paper-vote-start/

Morgana
And in answer to previous post yes I grew up in Stoke and still have family there. They have been badly let down by successive governments.

I know how depressing it has been in Stoke for many years but had thought that there had been a lot of ongoing improvements in the past couple of years, regeneration, new industries - and some hope at last.

This was Stoke eight or nine years ago; I am just wondering whether it has changed much with all the regeneration and renewed hope. However, it sounds as if Tristram Hunt was completely out of touch with his constituents and Labour really need to field a candidate who is in tune with what they are thinking. I don't think they have.
www.theguardian.com/politics/2008/may/28/labour.thefarright

Yorkshiregel

Some good posts but I must correct you as you seem to be under a misapprehension on a couple of small but important points:

"I didn't say tuition fees had anything to do with the EU, but the money saved from not having to send vast amounts every day to the EU could pay for our own children to be university educated free of charge and so fill the gap when it comes to employing nurses and doctors, at the moment we rely on too many from overseas^

But they are affected by the EU! While we remain in, EU student have to be treated like our own, paying UK student tuition fees and even getting student loans (which huge numbers never pay bacK).
It will save money and save more places at our highly sought after universities for British students!

Secondly, you appear to think that there is a shortage of BRitish students applying for medicine and nursing courses?
This is absolutely NOT TRUE. Places on these courses and all other NHS professional courses (such as physiotherapy) are very very sought after! The shortages are purely because our governments have for decades failed to create enough trainign places! Its cheaper and suits many peoples agenda to bring thm in ready trained from poorer countries!

This is truly disgusting! We should train ALL our own doctors, nurses and other NHS professionals!

The hypocricy of left wingers who claim its OK to do this is astonishing and highlights how brainwashed and confused so many of them are!

I think you should check out the regulations, Mair.

EU nationals are only eligible for 'home status' (ie to be treated as 'our own'), be eligible for UK fees and be able to apply for a loan, if they have been settled in the UK for at least three years before the start of the course. They also have to meet language ability criteria. It is cheaper to study in their country of origin.

The EU is actually advantageous for UK students, because they can apply for courses in EU universities and only have to pay local fees, which are much cheaper than UK universities. Although they have to meet language criteria for some courses, some universities are now running courses in English.

UK universities stand to lose financially from leaving the UK, because many EU and international students are self-funded and pay much higher fees than home students. Some also bring research grants with them from their country of origin. These are in addition to the number of UK students which the British government is willing to fund. Losing them will not mean that there are places available for UK students. There has already been a decrease in the number of EU and international students applying for British universities, so the universities will lose financially.

Thank you for that clear, calm explanation daphnedill . I know of several students who have elected to study in EU countries like Netherlands and Sweden where there are excellent courses which are much cheaper - or even free - than the equivalent UK courses. And because English is the international language of science, the courses are in English. A senior academic said to my DH that if his kids wanted to study science, he'd advise them to do this.
University boards around the country are currently very worried about the drop in applications from non UK students because the drop in income will mean they have to cut services to all students. So fewer non UK students will have a negative impact on UK students.

"EU nationals are only eligible for 'home status' (ie to be treated as 'our own'), be eligible for UK fees and be able to apply for a loan, if they have been settled in the UK for at least three years before the start of the course"

I am afraid youre wrong Daphne

4. ‘EU Nationals in the UK’
In order to qualify for 'home' fees under this category, you must meet all of the following criteria:

(a) you are an non-UK EU national on the first day of the first academic year of the course. If you are a national of a country that joins the EU after the start of your course you will be treated as meeting this requirement in the next academic year; and

(b) you were ordinarily resident in the UK on first day of the first academic year of the course; and

(c) you were ordinarily resident in the UK and Islands for the three-year period before the first day of the first academic year of the course; and

(d) if during any part of the three year period, the main purpose for your residence was to receive full-time education, you must have been ordinarily resident in the EEA and/or Switzerland and/or the overseas territories immediately prior to the three-year period of ordinary residence in the UK and Islands.

They also have to meet language ability criteria. It is cheaper to study in their country of origin.

No they dont, though they do have to meet language criteria to win a university place, and sometimes not very high ones.

JessM

"University boards around the country are currently very worried about the drop in applications from non UK students because the drop in income will mean they have to cut services to all students. So fewer non UK students will have a negative impact on UK students."

Its third country nationals who bring extra income Jess, EU nationals offer no benefit. You ar conflating the two.

Daphne is confused between student loans which do demand three year residency and tuition fees which do not!

Thank you for clearing that up Mair I had heard that it's countries outside the EU that bring money to our universities.

....and also they bring money to EU countries universities as well.

No I am certainly not conflating the two Mair EU nationals pay the same fees as UK students - an income for the universities that is far from trivial.
Non-EU students pay even higher fees of course.

Mair - so you're getting all riled up about the fact that EU nationals who have lived here for 3 years can apply for a student loan?
In other words the ones whose parents are working here and contributing to the economy? Those ones?

I'm not quite sure what the problem is here. Being eligible for 'home' fees isn't detrimental to the University; it just means it's not making much money from them (but do note that UK students are at present free to exploit cheaper fees in other EU countries, a route they will lose on Brexit).

The three year residence criteria does apply to obtaining a student loan, so how do we get from that to a belief that EU students just rock up, take the loan and then disappear withiut paying it back?

X post, Jess.

Actually, a lot of our own ( ie. British born) students do not ever pay it back, so that probably applies to EU students as well.That's student loans.The government loses a lot this way.Presumably after we leave the EU , students wanting to study here will have to pay more, and no loans given.That will not affect the really good Universities so much ( Russel Group) but will affect the shall we say, lesser ones( which may be a good thing.) There are too many of the not so good type of Uni's around, they land students with huge debts to pay back ( or not pay back) and do not impress employers or lead to great jobs.Too many Uni's were created in the not too distant past, polytechnics converted to them for instance, it may be time to re-think the whole thing.

My second sentence was ' that is student loans' ( in case of doubt.)

Jess said

"No I am certainly not conflating the two Mair EU nationals pay the same fees as UK students - an income for the universities that is far from trivial.
Non-EU students pay even higher fees of course"

Sorry Jess but you most certainly did conflate the two in your earlier post:

"University boards around the country are currently very worried about the drop in applications from non UK students because the drop in income will mean they have to cut services to all students. "

"Mair - so you're getting all riled up ?"

Not "riled up" at all Jess. Simply correcting your error.

Jess said:

"EU nationals pay the same fees as UK students - an income for the universities that is far from trivial"

While strictly speaking this is correct it is predicated on two false assumptions
1. That student fees cover the full cost of their courses. This isnt so, because tuition fees are capped. The cost to the university is also very variable with generally practical scientific courses being much more costly than an essay writing subject such as English or law.

2. That universities would b unable to fill the places with UK students - rarely true and generally true only of the less respected courses at polyuniversities. Arguably such courses should be closed.

EU students are of NO benefit to UK students whatsoever , in fact they block places that would otherwise be available to our own. This is especially damaging for the most sought after and expensive UK courses such as medicine, veterinary science, dentistry, nursing.

it will affect our universities

Daphnedill is not getting confused.

Which no doubt explains why the university vice-chancellors were vocally against Brexit and why they are very worried about the drop in EU numbers.
And are generally agreed that a hard brexit would be a disaster for science and technology side of universities

Roses

Actually, a lot of our own ( ie. British born) students do not ever pay it back, so that probably applies to EU students as well.That's student loans.

You are right, but the picture is far worse than that as the 'pay back rate' is in reality MUCH lower from EU students, because it is so easy for them to disappear, and so hard to trace them!

www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/10920523/

*EU-students-fail-to-repay-record-40m-in-university-loans.html
Figures from the Student Loans Company show that EU students are failing to repay almost £40m after borrowing money to study in England, with debts tripling in two years*

The idea that 27 different countries with different cultures and languages can cooperate effectively as a single state would is ridiculous, its like herding cats!

Dont expect any of this to be taken on board by the EU zealots however.

Much as they love to use economic arguments about Brexit, their fervour for the EU is absolutely nothing to do with economic reality at all, and all about Faith!

I vow to thee, my E.U
All earthly things above
Entire and whole and perfect
The service of my love

Surely that would be their stance though, as they want things to continue as they are with record ( or high) numbers of students.Universities are a sort of business after all and do not like uncertainty.

My above post was to Jess

Jess said

"Which no doubt explains why the university vice-chancellors were vocally against Brexit and why they are very worried about the drop in EU numbers".

No of course it doesn't. Stop throwing in red herrings, their reasons are far far more complex but certainly NOT because EU students 'benefit' UK students . They do not.