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Freedom of speech

(568 Posts)
Christinefrance Mon 06-Feb-17 19:32:14

I've just heard that the Speaker Mr Bercow wants to ban Donald Trump from speaking in the House. Whilst not in agreement with most of the Donald 's ideas I do believe in the freedom of speech. What do others think ?

Jalima Tue 14-Feb-17 12:23:15

Q282 Paul Flynn: I spoke to the man who made the film and he did say that much of the information in the film was supplied by people who work in your Department.

Sir Robert Devereux: Yes, he may well have said that. I have 75,000 staff so maybe a little bit of local knowledge might be allowed to be introduced to the conversation."

I am surprised at Paul Flynn. He obviously didn't think that RL has a patch on fiction.
If it wasn't so patronising it would be hilarious!

GracesGranMK2 Tue 14-Feb-17 13:25:41

I agree that people are waking up to the arrogance Ankers but, as a cypher for government - currently the Conservatives - I see the arrogance coming from Devereux. His reply ...

"... but I have visited many more Jobcentres than I suspect you or the filmmaker have and since I have pride in the colleagues I work with, I know something about what they actually do. I will just choose to differ on whether or not this is an entirely accurate representation. It is a film."

... is just the sort that makes people feel they do not count. He has no interest whatsoever in how it feels to be those demeaned by the service they are given. Of course people can understand the words used be what is incomprehensible is the way in which he answered - why would he do it in that way? The people on the receiving end of these services are not conducting an academic study and the film may well mean a great deal more to them. Devereux not only has no intention of thinking about them while he tries to put down someone speaking on their behalf but he obviously just doesn't get or intend to understand the world they live in.

Ankers Tue 14-Feb-17 13:57:51

But he is talking to Paul Flynn?

Jalima Tue 14-Feb-17 14:05:31

Ankers
Paul Flynn is a Labour MP (a quite elderly one, 81 I think, with lots of experience).
Sir Robert Devereux is not an MP, he is a civil servant in charge of Social Security.

Sir Robert was in front of the Select Committee was questioned by Paul Flynn who seemed to think it was a prerequisite of a busy civil servant's life to watch a fictional (but good) film made by renowned director Ken Loach whose films have a social conscience with a left-wing bias.

Civil servants are supposed to remain impartial and carry out the instructions of the Government of the day, Labour, Conservative, Coalition or whatever.

So it was a pretty silly question to ask Devereux if he 'thought he should see it'.

GracesGranMK2 Tue 14-Feb-17 14:50:51

It is a Select Committee's job to report to the nation via Parliament. This man (Devereux) is still speaking Whitehall Mandarin speak. If you want to know why people are voting against the status quo just listen to him. Yes, watching a film is populist but that at least makes contact with the people who vote. His experience, as he reports it, makes him appear to be in a government ivory tower.

He may have to remain impartial but he does have to report what he is doing on behalf of the current government. What he has done, by ignoring the aspect he was asked to comment on, was to represent a government that feels it is above the people who use the service. It doesn't bother me. If the current politicians and their servants keep doing this I imagine some of the EU governments will not be the only ones worrying about getting in to power next time.

Anniebach Tue 14-Feb-17 16:10:58

So at PMQ Paul Flynn should ask May her opinion on the death of Daniel Blake ?

GracesGranMK2 Tue 14-Feb-17 16:20:45

I know you don't get it Annie et al but you may eventually.

Anniebach Tue 14-Feb-17 16:34:54

Please do not try to patronise me, you fail miserably GG2

Beammeupscottie Tue 14-Feb-17 16:54:39

These films do not make a jot of difference to the way people vote, imo. Let us see who wins Stoke-on-Trent, shall we.

mcem Tue 14-Feb-17 17:08:22

Carol come home made a difference!

mcem Tue 14-Feb-17 17:09:21

Sorry - Cathy not Carol!

Rigby46 Tue 14-Feb-17 17:20:18

I'm surprised that he didn't see the film. I think that smacks of arrogance - there are not many films ( if any others) that are based on a person's experience of the benefits system and if it was an area where I was a top official, I'd have wanted to watch it, just to see what the 'opposition' were saying. An area of work I'm involved in is sometimes used in TV dramas and I always watch out of interest to see how accurate it is < sigh even allowing for dramatic licence> and to see what sort of message is being put out there and influencing maybe popular conceptions. As for the influence of films in general - over my lifetime I've read, watched and listened to many works of fiction that I feel have had an important truth within them - maybe about the human condition, human nature and relationships. Think of the Greek tradegies, many of Shakespeare's plays - I've learned from them and they've given something we should perhaps think about a human face . Top of my head - Grapes of Wrath, Middlemarch, Boys from the Blackstuff, Cathy come Home, Death of a Salesman, Kes. And just recently on GN some of us discussed how Unforgotten had so movingly expressed the life long pain and suffering that results from child sexual abuse.

Rigby46 Tue 14-Feb-17 17:20:53

mcem X post

Rigby46 Tue 14-Feb-17 17:22:31

( I bet he has really seen the film)

Anniebach Tue 14-Feb-17 17:23:57

The film was shown in 1966, there was a Labour government, at the next election 1970 Ted Heath got in , so didn't help labour

Rigby46 Tue 14-Feb-17 17:29:16

Cathy come Home wasn't about influencing votes - it was about influencing housing policy. Policy can be influenced whichever party is in power.

mcem Tue 14-Feb-17 17:37:03

And pricking consciences and raising awareness. That must have worked or we wouldn't still be talking about it and using it as a benchmark.

Rigby46 Tue 14-Feb-17 17:45:07

Yes mcem - if it doesn't prick consciences and raise awareness, it's unlikely to influence policy. That's why I think fiction can be so helpful - people will watch a film or tv series when they wouldn't perhaps watch a documentary or read a report - then the person in the film makes the issue real, brings it alive and hopefully this may influence change. ( well we can dream)

durhamjen Tue 14-Feb-17 18:20:53

Dickens wrote fiction based on reality. He changed people's ideas on poverty, gave an insight into prisons and workhouses.

Strange how people are still saying it's just fiction.
Many of the actors in I, Daniel Blake were real people, not actors and Loach interviewed many jobcentre staff, many of whom had left because they did not like what they were being asked to do.

"Loach cites testimonies he and the screenwriter Paul Laverty took from current and former jobcentre employees. He said: “Many of [them] walked away from the jobcentre because they were disgusted by what they were being asked to do. They left because they didn’t want to be part of something they believed to be wrong. Steve [McCall] has obviously chosen to stay.”

The jobcentre and Department for Work and Pensions employees Loach refers to are thanked in the film’s closing credits but were too scared to be named individually for fear of retribution, Loach said.

“They told us that jobcentre employees understood they were working in a bureaucratic trap that had been built with the intention of catching people out,” he said. “They told us that people working at the jobcentre were given targets when it came to how many people they were expected to sanction. There is no doubt in my mind that, if a random cross-section of people went to the jobcentre every day, did everything they were asked to do, dotted every ‘i’ and crossed every ‘t’, some of them would still be sanctioned.”

Loach is backed up by Amanda Payne, who worked at the same Newcastle branch in a number of positions, including as work search assessor and hardship allowance officer, before leaving in 2015. She was cast in a small role in I, Daniel Blake."

MawBroon Tue 14-Feb-17 18:28:04

I believe Harriet Beecher Stowe's book "Uncle Tom's Cabin" was very influential in the anti slavery movementt and Charles Kingsley's "Water Babies" highlighted the appalling plight of child labour (forcing little boys up chimneys to sweep them)
It is very possible and not at all uncommon to use fiction to draw the attention of the general public to extreme social ills.
I dare say others will come up with other examples.

GracesGranMK2 Tue 14-Feb-17 18:29:02

"Cathy come Home wasn't about influencing votes - it was about influencing housing policy. Policy can be influenced whichever party is in power."

You are so right Rigby. There is still a lot of old party politicking on here while it is changing all around us. If you say exactly the same thing about someone a group on here don't like and then about someone from a group they do you will get a negative response re the first and a positive one re the second - a bit sad really.

Good (or bad) policy can come from any party or from elsewhere. I certainly think there are dramas and documentaries which stay in the cultural memory for decades and do influence change.

GracesGranMK2 Tue 14-Feb-17 18:30:38

x point MawBroon - I don't type quickly enoughsmile Great examples.

POGS Tue 14-Feb-17 18:31:02

Why should he watch the film?

Sorry but I don't understand the thought that some have Ken Loach can do no wrong and I certainly do not comprehend why a politician who sits on a Select Committee asks inane questions.

Paul Flynn could have made his point, certainly gave his question more credence, if he had used a more intellectual reference to the issues he wanted to raise.

GracesGranMK2 Tue 14-Feb-17 18:33:20

... and Jen 18:20:53. How do you all type so quickly?

Ana Tue 14-Feb-17 18:35:08

I think it's all to do with the 'a bit sad' party groupong GraceGranMk2 was on about POGS.

One group sees the interview in one light etc. I'm sure GracesGranMk2 is in a group too...