Can the Tories be trusted with OUR National Health Service

JessM sorry I don't get your point. Are you expecting elders to be fit to the point of death, obviously there is going to be a decline in health as we age.
The majority of immigrants may be young...not always healthier than the indigenous population and use the NHS for services like maternity which are very expensive, additionally they have no UK tax history so are benefitting from this.
I fail to understand why, because some of the younger generation are not suffering from age related illnesses that some people think that they are not impacting on NHS,

Rigby

I said this in my post:-

"I never understand the mantra that the NHS is a 'free' service. No it's not!. I think that view is part of the problem as to why there is abuse of the system."

You responded by saying :-

" POGs I think most of us on here understand the phrase free NHS to mean free at the point of use ( with of course a few exceptions). It's not a mantra - it's a fundementally principle of how it was was set up. Some may not agree with the fact that it is mostly free at the point of use but that's a point to be discussed".

You are splitting hairs as "Free at the point of use" still implies it is free. It is not, that's my point.

There are people who do not understand how our NHS Service is funded. I remember watching an interesting programme where people from various cultures moved into a house to live together. One woman from Somalia did not/could not understand when others said the NHS is not really free, it's paid for by people paying their taxes. She said no, everybody in my country knows the NHS is free, I don't pay taxes and I get it free. That is just an example of course but a view a hell of a lot of people hold.

My point is our NHS is served badly by people holding that view. Take an A & E department and the misuse by some who will go for what is obviously a non emergency, because they can , it costs them nothing.

When my father and I were at Leicester Royal Infirmary once, he had suffered a heart attack, I was shocked at what I was seeing and hearing and I most certainly am not of a wimpy nature I assure you. The staff were receiving verbal and physical abuse by the alcoholics/ drug addicts. One young girl and her friends were 'screaming' for attention as she had fell over and had a cut on her foot that my 10 year old GD would have put a plaster on . I could go on but you get my drift.

They are of the ilk that think it is 'their right' to free care because that is what the NHS is in their minds, a free service. They were not interested in the health of those around them they just 'made their demands'. Yes it is 'their right' to be treated due to the ' fundemental pricipal of how it was set up' but it was being abused and that will happen day in day out in every A & E up and down the country because of the ease with which we have heard the mantra the NHS is a free service on demand, without really reminding people it is not free, it has been prepared for by taxation.

Perhaps I have made my point badly.

Oh dear Joelsnan how can I explain.
In the middle of the 20th Century - in the 1950s and 1960s the birth rate was high in the UK. it then fell. It's highest was nearly a million babies a year in the 1960s.
It's now down to around 700,000.
So there is a natural population bulge heading into, or already into retirement age.
Add to this the fact that people live longer than their parents did, so more and more people are living into into their 70s and many into their 80s and 90s.
Older people are, on average, rather less healthy than younger people.
Plus an awful lot of people need a fair bit of NHS care before they actually die.
So it is obvious that there are going to be more GP appointments needed, more operations, more hospital beds and more staff to look after them.
If you can't picture what these statistics mean I suggest you go for a wander around a general hospital and just notice the age profile of the people in the beds.

POGS we can all say what we think doesn't work, and you are clearly right in mentioning those who abuse the service. But what do you think we ought to do to improve it (I won't say "fix it" because I'm sure it will never be everything we want it to be).

POGs - I have no idea what proportion of people don't understand that the NHS is paid for but not at the point of use. I do come across a lot of people who seem to think NI is the principle source of funds but even they realise it is being paid for. Are you really making the point that it shouldn't be free at the point of use or that people should be better informed as to how it is paid for? If the former, then what should people pay for? Who would be exempt? It's a really complex issue and as with most complex issues there is no simple solution.

Are people interested in paying more as a % of our GDP, like other countries do?

[Rigby, interesting link, but as one of the posters afterwards says, the figures used to compare the UK with Europe do not include NHS spending on social care, whereas other contries the figure might be included?]

Ankers, I don't know about the social care point but I think people would be prepared to pay more, but for my part I wouldn't want a simple increase in percentage - that suggests taking money from another budget, and I can't see that there is any fat on any spending budget just now. Hence my earlier suggestion that we have an additional tax, but very specifically ring fenced for healthcare. Govts don't like ring fenced taxes for obvious reasons, but this may be one case where it might be acceptable.

JessM Having done nurse/midwifery training in Kate 60s early 70s I am well aware of demographics for hospital bed useage and even clinic useage. Yes, as always a high percentage are used by the elderly, however years ago there were specialist geriatric wards to cater for the most aged, mental hospitals were also used for those suffering dementia etc. then there were convalescent homes where they were discharged following treatment and there were council run homes for the elderly, this was the case before the baby boomers impacted positively on tax revenues.
As I have said before yes post war birth rates did exceed current rates, however immigration has mitigated the imbalance. And as has always been the case since the introduction of NI payments, the youth pay for the elders and this reciprocal agreement has occurred since then.

I fail to understand why, because some of the younger generation are not suffering from age related illnesses that some people think that they are not impacting on NHS,

They are certainly higher users of the NHS A&E Departments; older people of 80+ may be the highest users per 1,000 but they are not the highest users by number because the actual number of people in those age groups has dwindled.

Children 0-4 are the highest users of A&E (males more than females).
Age groups 20-29 are the next highest groups.

Stop letting the billionaires get off so lightly would be a start.
Raise (rather than reduce income tax to top earners)
Don't spend money on Trident? We are obviously now broke and can't afford it any more?
Stop behaving like we are a still a world power that can afford to send army and navy hither and thither?

If you can't picture what these statistics mean I suggest you go for a wander around a general hospital and just notice the age profile of the people in the beds.

That is because of the lack of convalescent type homes, halfway houses because many of the elderly people occupying the beds could be at home with care or in a convalescent or nursing home.

And yes, I also know that NI payments only contribute a % of the cost of NHS, not the whole cost. However it is a form of health taxation whatever % it is.

We don't have much of a navy now JessM.

Perhaps you hadn't noticed.

Fitzy and Rigby

"Are you really making the point that it shouldn't be free at the point of use or that people should be better informed as to how it is paid for?

A mixture of both actually but this point is a mere tip of the iceberg as to the problems isn't it?. I made a comment which has been latched onto, fair enough, but I consider waste and poor administration bigger problems.

I think the psychology behind the perception/mantra the NHS is 'Free'/'Free at the point of use' does create a feeling it is a god given 'right' to be treated and the knock on effect can cause the situation that no consideration need be given as to whether or not the system is being abused by either the patient and in some way by the NHS.

I could ask if you agree with seriously ill patients being made to wait longer to be seen by the health care staff because of drunken behaviour where there is no injury for example. This not involves the NHS but the Police Force too.

I would definitely adopt a strict triage system at A & E and controversially I think there are circumstances where payment could/should apply, such as Health Tourism (definitely require travel insurance for those outside of the EU),ensuring monies due from EU countries are recouped, drunken/drug abuse patients which are none emergency pay for the service they receive. etc.

Obviously any patient in danger of life irrespective of the cause must receive free treatment.

Again perhaps I am not explaining myself very well but I have tried to respond to your questions.

X post Joelsnan re convalescent homes, geriatric hospitals etc

I could ask if you agree with seriously ill patients being made to wait longer to be seen by the health care staff because of drunken behaviour where there is no injury for example.

I wonder if the 'drinking culture' is the reason why the age groups 20-24 and 25-29 are the highest users of A&E apart from small children aged 0-4?

Surely that age group can't be more accident-prone or needing other urgent treatment than any other age groups?

POGS - you certainly have some ideas worth exploring. I'm not sure I agree entirely but this is what we really need in threads like this- ideas for moving forward.
Jess - maybe we don't need trident but surely need much more spent on defence/security?

Jalima, according to someone on the Jeremy Vine show Radio 2 today more in the age groups you mention have accidents involving stairs than the elderly - and it was being blamed on mobile phone addiction!

I wonder if the 'drinking culture' is the reason why the age groups 20-24 and 25-29 are the highest users of A&E apart from small children aged 0-4?

And sport injuries?

We need to stop rabbiting on about where the money is spent and concentrate on where it comes from. We need our hospitals to treat young people with their sporting injuries and old people with dementia. Billionaires are not going to pay for it all. Theee are no more cuts to be made so everyone including everyone contributing to this thread will have to put more into the pot if things are to improve to any meaningful extent. Are all of us with more than very basic income prepared to do that or are we all happy to just keep on moaning about the Tories, the immigrants, the billionaires, the drunks in A&E...........

www.theguardian.com/society/2017/feb/08/two-tier-nhs-gps-allow-patients-pay-jump-the-queue-bournemouth

Yes Ankers that is probably a reason for many of them.

I've said that many times Fitzy54 - I have no idea why pensioners do not pay a reduced rate of NI on a means-tested basis.
That is easy for me to say, of course, as I do not pay tax.

HOWEVER I want those in tax avoidance schemes to be chased, penalised and made to pay their due taxes.

As far as I am concerned, no politicians are to be trusted with our NHS.

When I say those I do not mean all pensioners in tax avoidance schemes, although there must be some - I mean all people who are wealthy tax avoiders, be it millionaires, multi-millionaires, billionaires, companies etc.

I saw that djen - how will they find the time?

Someone accused whitewave of being biased.

Surely anyone who expresses an opinion is biased? Why is it that those who say the NHS is safe in Conservative hands, or it is not their fault that it is in a mess, do not see themselves as biased?

whitewave, JessM and many others have backed up their opinions about the danger to the NHS with some very pertinent facts and figures. Sarah Woolaston, a Conservative MP, also said last year that the figures being quoted regarding NHS funding are misleading:

"you can only arrive at the £10 billion by shifting money from public health budgets and health education and training and also by changing the date with which you calculate real-term increases."

She is a doctor and probably has a good deal more experience and knowledge of past and current policies and their effects.

It seems that the majority of consultants and other medical and nursing staff working in the NHS are agreed that a major issue is the lack of social care provision. This has arisen because of the swingeing cuts in council budgets. So, with a decreased amount going into hospitals added to the reduction in after-care/convalescent provision, it is no wonder that the NHS is in chaos. Indeed, the Conservatives were opposed to the system from its inception.

My experience is that there have always been people who have misused A&E. I recall visiting A&E in Colchester with one of my children in or around 1986 when a woman came in with a gnat bite.

Having watched the programme Hospital, I marvel at the energy and commitment of all the staff who are working under the most enormous pressures. Most of them say that they have never seen the health service in the most desperate state it is now. I would say it's no coincidence that this decline has occurred since the Conservatives got into power - and it was predicted that this would happen because many Conservatives, including Jeremy Hunt, have already expressed their very negative views about the NHS.