Could this be the start of a nasty period in Britain as Brexit starts to hit?

daphndil

Your response to GrannyAnnie 2010 who posted re Irene Clennel was simply showing bias or ignorance, take your pick, as GrannyAnnie was posting in response to previous posts on the subject.

Funny you did not rebuke previous posters by telling them:-

"Thank you for that xxxxxx. As you write, this has nothing to do with Brexit or the rights of EU citizens, although it doesn't surprise me that it's somehow morphed into a debate about immigration and Brexit, whether or not Brexit will even affect immigration of non-EU citizens"

As the Speaker would say.

"I want to hear from GrannyAnnie". Not try and shut her up.

daphnedil

' We will still need to allow some people to come from the EU and elsewhere to do essential jobs.'

Yes! Can you tell me one political party that does not concur with that statement other than the BNP because I listen intentently to what is said and nobody has said anything different to your words.

What people who are charged as being racist/xenophobic because they voted to leave the EU I believe are hoping for is an end to
seeing their jobs market falling away by laws such the EU Posted Workers Directive as an example. Whether or not you agree plenty of people from various areas of the country are struggling to cope with the influx of immigrants, their demographic way of life has been eroded. Wages have been lowered by the Free Movement of People. Obviously there is competition for jobs and when the locals miss out it naturally causes resentment. That by the way is not a UK only problem, it applies to other countries also hence we are seeing the political changes in other countries too .

Most people accept / understand there will be immigration but again they are hoping for immigration to be allocated wisely and to those who will abide by our laws, be productive and prove to be good fellow citizens.

It is fine to say that government , not only Tory for goodness sake, have not provided homes, school places, NHS provision for the high levels of immigration but that does not address the question why vast amounts of money paid for through taxation by the people should provide for it if as happens the indigenous population are seeing their needs for school places, accommodation, health care suffering due to the high numbers of immigration.

Now I have read repeatedly that immigrants are a boon for the UK, not necessarily. If workers are keeping wages down, on low pay that ensures they are housed, receive tax credits and other benefits, they require education, health care immigration soon becomes an issue and the issue finally surfaced in the EU Referendum result.

It's difficult but I don't see or hear any of the political parties saying that they do not want any immigration, full stop Nada/Zilch/Nothing. I hear a more pragmatic rhetoric to be honest.

What is the problem with the Australian Points System? Nobody says Australia's Point System is racist/xenophobic. It makes perfect sense. If a UK Government , especially a Tory one, were to put it into place they would be racist/zenophic 'In The Eyes Of Some'.

The time has come for a pragmatic, Realpolitik type of governance and immigration is a huge factor.

Thank you for that GrannyAnnie. As you write, this has nothing to do with Brexit or the rights of EU citizens, although it doesn't surprise me that it's somehow morphed into a debate about immigration and Brexit, whether or not Brexit will even affect immigration of non-EU citizens. It frustrates me so much that issues get confused in this way, in the same way that people interviewed before the referendum said they were going to vote Leave to kick Muslims out.

I have some sympathy for Irene Clennel, but I would have thought it was in her best interest to be up-to-date with the law. I'm afraid it reminds me of the case of the Australians in Scotland, for which there was also an enormous amount of public sympathy. Cases such as this make a mockery of the law and genuine asylum seekers.

I feel that 18 year olds deported just before taking A levels and the university student deported just before taking her degree have a much stronger case for some compassionate arrangement, but they don't seem to get so much publicity. Maybe their families can't afford it.

LADIES - please get your facts right before you bash Brexit.

Irene Clennel has lived in the UK for a total of 10 years only, since arriving in 1988. Since then, she has spent 1992 to 1998 living in Singapore with her husband and sons, after which time they returned to the UK so that she qualified to buy property on the strength of her Singaporean passport. She has since sold this property to make a tidy sum for herself.

Angela Clennel - her sister-in-law, has raised over £50,000 to "fight her case", yet Irene claims to have only £12 in her pocket?

Singapore is not some third world back water - it is one of the top economies in the world - enviably so.

I am appalled that you can read a headlines and sensational reporting, then condemn Brexit, the government and all sorts of bodies, without actually checking out the facts. GillT57, you have summarised the case exactly how the media wanted you to, and you are wrong. Gullible or what?

Here's the truth:
limpehft.blogspot.co.uk/2017/02/q-irene-clennell-immigration-case.html

Jess M 09.06

"Baroness this morning on Today programme was very emphatic that it is in everyone's interests - both EU nationals here and UK in Europe, to resolve this before the negotiations start. "

That's the point I keep making g .

Theresa May tried to get some sort of 'Reciprocal Right' agreement but was flatly turned down by Merkel, Donald Tusk/EU Commission. The EU has repeatedly stuck to it's word:-

' No Negotiations Before Article 50 Has Been Triggered'.

It matters not a jot who, what , where the empathy comes from it is just not penetrating.

The longer the House of Lords and Parliament 'ping pong' the triggering of Article 50 the longer it takes to get sorted. Both the UK Government and the EU Commission/Parliament have said they want to resolve the matter of EU citizens from the '28' Nations and residency.

It was an issue because ukip and the more rampant Brexiters and press made it an issue as something they knew they could use to their advantage. That is why Farage is still chuntering on about it to keep ukip relevant - he hopes. Scapegoating is an age old tool. Rationality and common sense has nothing to do with it.

Apparently facts are now irrelevant. Democracy apparently is all about what people feel is true or believe regardless of facts or truth. God help us!!

But leaving the EU will make absolutely no difference to those coming from unstable parts of the world. There will still be people smuggling and we still issue visa to people from non-EU countries. We will still need to allow some people to come from the EU and elsewhere to do essential jobs.

The government has now admitted that immigration will probably not go down after the UK leaves the EU. The number coming from outside the EU has always exceeded the number coming from the EU and the UK has always been able to control the number. I'm sorry, but I really don't understand why immigration should have been an issue at all.

We may already have controls daphne, but clearly it's not working. The immigration question was only a small part of why I voted Brexit. I've already explained all that and haven't time to go through it again.
Later I'd like to read all the other posts too, this subject has certainly rattled a few cages.

We're certainly more crowded than we were but we definitely could take care of our own citizens if there was the political will to do so. But there just isn't.

We are the 6th richest country in the world but we rank somewhere in the high 30s for unequal distribution of wealth. Every tory government we've had since 1979 has contributed to that position. People keep voting them in so presumably they're perfectly happy with this.

This site has the OECD chart showing equality of income distribution:

uk.businessinsider.com/ranked-income-inequality-around-the-world-2015-7?r=US&IR=T

Being near the top means that we have a more unequal distribution.

There's also people smuggling by boat along the East Coast JessM, but apparently we can't increase the strength of Border Control due to 'austerity'. [Hmm]

I'm a bit confused here HannahLoisLuke. When you wrote about people from unstable areas of the world, whom did you mean? Most of the EU is quite stable, so if you meant people from the Middle East, Africa and Asia, we already have control over immigration and always have had.

As this is a thread about immigration, I'll stick to the topic rather than going into the financial value of the EU.

How was voting Leave going to help? We currently have an agreement with the French government to keep them in France. But when the agreement was made they saw us as allies.
Unless you are talking about the ones who are smuggled across the channel in lorries. So how was Brexit going to change that?
And I don't see bursting at the seams myself. I see a country that needs immigrants from the EU and further afield to keep vital services going and help the economy in many ways.
The London area is struggling with housing - but that is not because lots of unnecessary immigrants are filling it up.

Jess M Am I talking about refugees? Not genuine ones, but even then we can't take unlimited numbers. Already we're bursting at the seams and can't take care of our own citizens.
Old saying, you can't get a quart into a pint pot.

Hollycat - Baroness this morning on Today programme was very emphatic that it is in everyone's interests - both EU nationals here and UK in Europe, to resolve this before the negotiations start. Because once they start everything remains un-resolved until the end of the negotiations. And even then - there could be chaos and limbo for all.
If we don't do this it will be in the pot for who knows how long.
She also made the point that if the UK does the principled thing and gives a promise now, then we are much more likely to end up in a mess.
My dentist is from Spain and his young family are settled here. Look around you - and unless you live in a very remote corner of the UK you probably know someone doing a vital job, or married to a UK national, that you would want to reassure.
And of course it would be a disaster for the NHS, the care sector and many businesses if there was an exodus of EU Labour. It's already begun. (Back to trying to get doctors and nurses from countries that can ill afford to lose them? Always an option.)
Hannah... I'm mystified unstable areas of the world ?? Are you talking about refugees?

I signed the petition to allow the student to stay. I also signed another to allow a 93 year old South African lady to stay here with her family as she's in poor health and has no family in SA. Also the Iranian lady imprisoned in Iran after visiting family there. She is married to a British man and lived here for years.

I also voted for Brexit and yes it was to partly to put a stop to uncontrolled immigration from unstable areas of the world. I sympathise with genuine refugees but we just cannot have an open door. Eu citizens do a use ful job and I'm happy for them to stay. They're probably more useful to us than our pensioners are to the Spanish!
I mainly voted Brexit though because I'm sick of our laws and way of life being overseen and dictated by an overblown and extremely expensive parliament in another country. I like being friendly with other countries, any other countries but first and foremost I'm British and I want to live in Britain with our own laws and culture.
Whether that is what Brexit will deliver is another matter!

Maybe I am too close to the problem Hollycat I am a UK national living in the EU!!!

We are not worried about our treatment in France - unless of course Le Pen gets elected - the people are very supportive and the great majority of 'Foncionaires' . We are worried about what the BRITISH GOVT will do to us in the way of our tax paid in UK and pensions. Also about our Healthcare which we paid for all our working lives.

It was British people living in the EU who lobbied the Peers yesterday ! Our groups have been working for months on this and Nicholas kept us informed about the Newsnight interview last night where Peter Bone showed himself to be the uninformed man he is! The people who are applying for citizenship have lived in UK for many many years not just the minimum 5. They have worked and some are receiving pensions they paid for. Britain is proving to be good at changing the rules and telling no one till they fall foul of these new regulations and then writing refusal and go home letters. The MPs are often proving less than sympathetic let alone helpful to people living in their constituencies despite what Bone said last night.
This morning there are more people than ever talking of leaving the UK - as many of them have been looking for work elsewhere they have discovered that many other places are paying higher wages than the UK. I wish them luck if they do leave and the hope they find a more friendly place to live.

It would seem you are a bit too close to the problem Durhamjen to be objective. But if you take yourself and your family out of the equation and look at the thing as a whole you will perhaps get a different perspective. My cousin, married to a Spaniard, living in Malaga for the last 40 years isn't too keen to have to uproot and come home either. But it is what it is, and until the EU deign to begin talks, I see no advantage for us to roll over and hand out guarantees to all and sundry when currently there is nothing on the table.

I have two daughters in law, both of whom are EU nationals. I also have UK relatives living in EU countries. None of them are at all concerned that their situations will change. The only ones with any worries are my daughters in law.
It's the UK that is changing, the UK that is leaving the EU - nothing else changes in any other country because of the UK decision.

Why is everyone so exercised about the fate of EU nationals in the U.K.? What about your own countrymen and women who have built their lives abroad? They currently live in uncertainty too. The EU flatly refused to settle the question of migrants both here and abroad until talks begin even though they were asked to put people before politics. So we apparently have to be magnanimous and give guarantees which we HOPE will be reciprocated. What if they're not? What then? Our people get kicked out whilst EU citizens carry on with THEIR lives here as normal. Who actually are the so called bargaining chips here?

Over a quarter of them? Really?
You obviously don't care about the fact that over 50% of EU doctors are thinking about leaving the NHS and going to mainland Europe because they do not feel welcome here, either.

Perhaps they didn't fill in their forms properly, or they haven't been here long enough to qualify, or they are not working , or, or etc. There will be good reasons.

press.labour.org.uk/post/157862448279/jeremy-corbyn-works-with-european-socialist

Did you read the link, roses?
28% of EU citizens who have applied for residency have had it turned down.
Fact. Not my choice of words.
Can you explain it?

That is simply your choice of words djen in fact it doesn't mean that at all.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/27/rejections-eu-citizens-seeking-uk-residency

This just shows that the government couldn't care less about EU citizens here.
Why should their word be trusted?