Lords revolting about Brexit

I don't think it would be a problem for a Leaver to take EU citizenship, if the terms were right. I could accept the Populist attractions of the EU like ease of travel and a single currency as long as the UK retains its sovereignty.

That would be the sovereignty that T May's A50 white paper said that we had never actually lost?

What a load of rubbish it all is. Hell and handcarts are rearing up ahead.

"..., if the terms were right."

How patronising that sounds. We no longer rule the world, cunco.

This is a really interesting article; though depressing for Remainers.

But, in view of ww's previous post the one thing that emerges is: Economic arguments are currently far less important than other factors to Leave segments

Which is pretty scary. We Remainers didn't vote to be plunged into poverty. And we won't be overjoyed if we are... or feel too friendly towards those who impoverished us...

britainthinks.com/pdfs/BritainThinks_Brexit-Diaries-Breakfast-Briefing_FINAL.pdf

This is an interesting blog, too. By a Professor of Politics.

^Assessing the UK’s 12 Brexit goals: from the achievable to the nigh-on impossible^

The likelihood of achieving the government’s goals varies from goal to goal. Each can be classified on a simple scale ranging from 0 (impossible); 1 or 2 (achievable with difficulty or only partially); 3, (amenable to bargaining and compromise); and 4 (readily achievable). They rank as follows:

blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2017/02/15/assessing-the-uks-12-brexit-goals-from-the-achievable-to-the-nigh-on-impossible/

Ideally, EU citizenship should be refused to anyone who voted Leave

(And I do know it would be impossible to administer as we still have a secret ballot system)

Start with MPs, Maizie. We know how most of them voted.
Can't believe any UKIP members voted to remain, either.
Party lists.

Good to know that the LSE professor thinks that rights of EU and UK nationals living in other countries is in the readily achievable ranking.
Which begs the question, why doesn't May just go ahead and agree to it. She'll gain brownie points, and wrongfoot the rest of the EU.

She also has much worse battles to fight. She should save her energy for those.

I thought I'd read that before, Maizie. Just realised it's in UK in a changing Europe.

Strenthening the Union gets a 1 or a 0, depending on what mood he's in.

Another article from the LSE site about EU citizens living in the UK.

blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2017/01/26/no-longer-welcome-the-eu-academics-in-britain-told-to-make-arrangements-to-leave/

Applying for leave to remain is the wrong thing to do at the moment, tell your EU friends living in the UK. They did it to make themselves feel safe, but it has done the opposite. These are university academics.

This is a briefing from the group which is wanting MPs to support the lords amendment on Monday.

r.mail.crowdjustice.co.uk/5pfi28akprale3d.html

r.mail.crowdjustice.co.uk/h4ai6p10fale3d.html

"I voted Remain last year. That was my democratic right. The fact that 52% voted to Leave does not change my right to hold my opinion. I was and am entitled to disagree with those who, in my opinion, committed a profound error of judgement. Despite what many in the Leave camp claim, that’s how democracy works. Differing opinions are not only necessary but have to be encouraged for it to thrive. Which means that those who voted Remain now have not just a right but an absolute duty not to acquiesce in Brexit, but to hold those who both wanted it and now have to deliver it to account for what they’re doing.

Saying that it’s important to remember how constructive opposition (which is the only sort that effects change) works. There are, in essence, three stages.

The first task is to establish what will change. Once Theresa May triggers Brexit the task is to ask ‘what will be different?’ Right now we know that we will leave the EU, single market and EEA, plus Euratom and a few other agencies. We also know many EU citizens may have to, or will want to, leave the country. Beyond that in truth we do not know a lot. There is a massive job to do in finding out what is going to happen, which we all need to know.

Second, the job is to ask why these changes will be for the better. We don’t have to justify asking: despite many claims made what we had with the EU worked. It was certainly imperfect, as I said, often. But imperfect systems can still work. And if they’re changed the onus is on those promoting the alternative to justify them. There’s another massive job to do in holding the Brexiteers to account in this way, whether they like it or not (and they won’t, because it’s not clear they have any answees).

Third, the failure of the Brexiteers has to be anticipated. That’s what opposition requires. Of course this may be misplaced activity. It is just possible Marie le Pen will collapse the EU and Brexit will take on a totally different complexion. It’s also just possible that I and many others are wrong and Brexit will really work as Boris Johnson imagined. If it does thinking about alternatives will be wasted effort. So be it, but it’s always politically reckless not to plan the alternative and when failure is as likely as seems to be the case with Brexit it would be irresponsible not to think about what comes next. When the official Opposition has already abandoned that task it just so happens it falls to others to do so. And we can’t rely on the SNP, whose alternative is not universally available.

My point then is this: Nothing requires a Remainer to now cooperate with Brexit. And as the day when the Brexit reality gets ever nearer the task of opposition becomes ever more important. I intend to be a part of it."

I agree with every word of this.

That's exactly how I feel dj

Brexit must be held to account and not to do so would be to let down future generations.

The government has now ordered the HoC to ignore the Lords' amendments.

I wonder if May is hoping a rebellion might trigger a general election.

Yikes! Interesting times!

The Government can request the HOC to do something but it cannot ORDER THEM.

Unless they suffer a amjor defeat which would require a lot of Tories to vote against a general election won't happen yet. However, there should be a general election before we finally leave the EU.

The results of other European elections could have unforeseen effects on the EU meaning that the UK may find it more akin to our national thinking. May be no need for Brexit after all.

Interesting and disturbing times indeed. I'm surprised the Dutch used water cannons.

Just read it Jen and also agree. This, in particular, resonated.

"Once Theresa May triggers Brexit the task is to ask ‘what will be different?’ Right now we know that we will leave the EU, single market and EEA, plus Euratom and a few other agencies. We also know many EU citizens may have to, or will want to, leave the country. Beyond that in truth we do not know a lot. There is a massive job to do in finding out what is going to happen, which we all need to know."

I just hope that our journalists can see past the 'let's get a headline whatever it takes' cross examination they go for these days and do a proper job of getting the information out to us.

No chance!! Brexit will be spun and spun because most of the right wing press support Brexit. It is a travesty that the population will only be fed half truths and spin.

I agree too - it is interesting but also worrying. I think the ramifications of leaving Eurotom will be far wider than people imagine. It will cost the UK a lot of money to set up monitoring organisations for all the things we share bodies with the EU at the moment - besides the paying of what we owe for agreements signed.

Thank you for posting that DJ, I agree, especially the final sentence. Mind you, I have no notion of how to co-operate with Brexit! What does that mean to an individual who wished to remain a European? How can we as individuals co-operate? Stop whingeing? Never!

Does 'co-operation' mean accepting the craziness of Theresa May et al failing to prepare for the very real fears that if she triggers Article 50 this week we are facing two years of Brexit negotiations with the possibility of no deal at the end? Do the Brexiteers expect us to 'co-operate' with that? Never!

Nor can I 'co-operate' with a plan I consider totally crazy by ending a deal with our largest import and export partner. What happened to the trade deals we were told other countries were lining up to do business with us? That's gone very quiet.

Davis is still spouting the 'will of the people' and PM May is pontificating about how we're all in this together. What nonsense, she's only keen to please her cronies, who will not be the ones who suffer. She's playing the game of putting her fingers in her ears and saying, 'Can't hear you! Can't hear you!'

If it becomes possible, I shall be applying for EU citizenship and I hope huge numbers of those who wish to remain Europeans do the same.

Apologies cindersdad for veering so far from your OP!

durhamjen. 00.54

Can I ask who wrote the words in your post please?

I know somebody who works for the European Medicines Agency in Canary Wharf. This is the main EU organisation for approving drugs.

Obviously, she's very concerned about her job, but nobody has the faintest idea what the plans are.

The options are:

a) to keep it as it is, but nobody knows how that would work;
b) to relocate to one of the remaining EU countries, but that's not an option for my friend;
c) to set up a parallel agency to approve and market UK drugs developed and manufactured in the UK.

I know dj can speak for herself, but I'm not sure she's here. It was Richard Murphy. Just copy and paste the first few lines into Google.

www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2017/03/11/its-essential-that-brexiteers-are-held-to-account-whether-they-lime-it-or-not/

daphnedil

Thank you.