Lords revolting about Brexit

Of course you may do that Welshwife... a free country and all that, but Cinders seems to be hoping for some sort of last minute reprieve, which ain't gonna happen!

Actually Welshwife it hasn't been great for our standard of living, all the EU immigration from those willing to work for peanuts here, has had a bad effect on pay for a lot of people.

Cindersdad I think you are right that so much could change over the next year in particular within the EU. Government has to be prepared - which they have blatantly not been so far. As the man said “When the facts change, I change my mind.", and Parliament needs to be in a position to make the best for the country in whatever circumstances occur.

Roses I am sure you are very gifted but even you cannot know what all the people felt/thought whatever they voted for and nor can you instruct people to 'come to terms' with anything. People still, even in your world, have freedoms not dictated by you.

GGM2 your rather heavy sarcasm aside( wit should be lightly done!) all but the thick on either side of the Remain and Leave vote knew it would not be a simple thing to leave the EU.
I am not 'instructing' anybody, more a helpful suggestion that they accept we will be leaving, there won't be any reprieves at the last minute, so it's wishful thinking only on their part, but of course they may moan all they like about it.
Like all moaning though, it's not constructive, and there are plenty of people on the forum who voted to Remain but are sanguine about the outcome of the vote and accept that it will happen.

We have 40 years of moaning to go! Get over it!

You'll still be here in 40 years?

Unless immigrants are working under a gang master they are getting minimum wage - it is not their fault that wages are low - this current phase goes back to the banking crisis - also taxes etc being weighted towards benefitting people at the top of the pay scale and punishing those at the bottom.
The way the benefits work with the govt making up the deficit of low wages so people can live is also part of the problem. Many employers may well be paying a fair wage but others are not knowing that the rest of the community will in effect pick up the tab. Minimum wage is a safety net but it also allows employers to say - well we are paying minimum wage or just above. Many jobs are paying thousands less than they were ten years ago. That is a UK problem not an immigrant one - too easy to make them the scapegoats.

Apart from Gangmasters ( a whole different thing which is slave labour who work for overlords illegally in the UK) what about employers who know that ( for instance) East European workers will come and work here legally but for small wages.Particularly in the rural sector.

I wasn't trying to be either witty or sarcastic roses - why would I be? You state things as if you know the reason why everyone voted. It is a simple fact that you can't and don't. Simple for most at least. I am not moaning, I have nothing to moan about, I just think you overreach your knowledge and what you say is untrue or at the very least unknown.

You don't know who is sanguine and who isn't either. They may just be waiting to see what happens - who knows. The only ones you can be a little sure about are the very small number of people on here who have declare "I am sanguine" otherwise, yet again, you take a small sample of those you are in contact with and extrapolate it to fit your personal thesis. I am not sure your method would stand up any sort of scrutiny and glad you have never been asked to research the general view of anything. You are entitled to your own views just as the rest of us are but you do insist on telling us what other people's are and I don't find that at all helpful - but maybe others like your fake facts

So good dd

Where is your evidence that Eastern Europeans are working for less? They are entitled to minimum wage and employers found to be paying less than that are breaking the law. There will always be people doing a 'hobble' cheaply but that is usually odd jobs rather than full time work. Everybody needs to pay the same for food etc.
You are blaming people who can only supply low paid jobs - mainly because others do not recognise the value or cost of what they do - for many if the ills of the country.

Various people on GN and in RL who voted Remain have now accepted the result and are hoping for a good outcome.Fact. There are also some on here and in RL who won't accept it and are moaning for the Olympics.Fact.
I don't deal in fake facts or links on GN btw.with or without smiley emoticons.

So taking the numbers giving any view at all on GN and in RL, who are already a self-selecting population rather than a cross section, and then looking at the small number who give the answer you are choosing and then extrapolate that into a 'fact' - that is what I would call a fake fact.

As for 'moaning', that really is just downright rude about people who are fighting for democracy roses.

Links are not fake fact roses; why would you call them that? They are the opportunity to read round a subject. We can all make up our own minds about whether the person writing has an in depth knowledge of the subject or not, whether you agree or whether it broadens the view you normally get of the subject. Or of course you could read nothing but things that agree with your preconceived view if that is what suits you roses.

Off out now - not ignoring you. Have a good day

I think you'll find it was Welshwife who insisted it was her right to 'moan' at 8.58 ths morning, GracesGranMK2...

Not only mine but at least half the population if they wish too.

Yes, I will have a good day thanks, in spite of pompous posts. ( complete with fake smiley faces.)
'People who are fighting for democracy' ( what...moaning?) Democracy is accepting the result of a democratic vote.
links to fake sites ( made up rubbish) have been known on GN btw but not put on by me

What a pity that most of the old Carry On Team are now dead, we could have had a great 'Carry On Moaning' film.

I think that had 30million voted to leave - which would have been about half the population - or even 25 it would be accepted as an overwhelming vote to leave - but it wasn't - it was 4% majority of those that voted and only about 1 million more than those who voted to remain - therein lies the problem - a badly set up vote leaving much trouble and discontent in its wake.

All that matters is those who did vote.The rest ( who didn't) were either under voting age, or didn't bother to vote, all that ever matters is the votes.

It is pretty certain that the HoC will not have the gumption to stop TM triggering Article 50.

Surely when we see how bad the terms are we must be given the chance to reconsider.

Just because you have already written a suicide note, it does not mean you have to jump of a cliff.

Varian just exchange the word gumption with the plural of what you hit with a cricket bat and you have the reason for what they will most likely do!

To Roses, and please accept this as a non-agressive post.

You omitted to list the thousands who were exempted from voting because they were working or living in the EU somewhere, my DD being one of them. So undemocratic for a politial democracy don't you think?

And...If Brexit will automatically lead us to a bright and wonderful future, why are you still worrying about remainers being negative?

Welshwife. 10.06

"Where is your evidence that Eastern Europeans are working for less?"

"Unless immigrants are working under a gang master they are getting minimum wage".

Sadly there are 'numerous' issues surrounding pay and conditions for legal and illegal workers, not only in the UK might I add. Slave Labour is not some kind of myth, it is sadly alive and kicking as we speak.

One example would be the illegal car washes that 'I have harked on about' , although it would appear some posters like to use them because they believe it gives them funding!

Have you not heard of 'Sweat Shops'? Do you honestly believe there are none in the UK?

I have raised many times the European Union Posted Workers Directive which 'was supposed' to pay EU Workers the minimum pay of the country they are working in. Last year it has been updated and you could look it up for yourself.

The European Union Posted Workers directive fed into the 'British Jobs for British Workers' , 'Social Dumping' categories. These are examples:-

Do you remember in 2009, the rules were at the centre of wildcat strikes in the UK after Italian company IREM used Portuguese and Italian workers for construction work at Total’s Lindsey Oil Refinery in Lincolnshire. Unions said that the practice undermined a commitment from then prime minister Gordon Brown to deliver “British jobs for British workers”.
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www.reuters.com/article/eu-workers-pay-idUSL5N16G3TC

"The European Commission proposed on Tuesday that workers from one European Union country posted to work in another must be legally entitled the same pay as local host country workers, rather than only to the host country's minimum wage."

"The Commission believes raising the wages of all posted workers to host country levels will remove what it calls "social dumping", or unfair competition.

Critics say this will protect labour markets in rich countries and certain sectors from any outside competition, because a price of a service is a key factor in a contract."

Not all matters connected to the immigrant workforce have been bad for the country, indeed it can most certainly be a force for the good of the UK. I think that is easily recognized when talking of the NHS as an example.

There is however an unpalatable truth that some fail to recognize/refuse to recognize, immigrant labour has in so many areas brought about wage stagnation, undercutting of wages, loss of job availabity for local workers etc.

This to my mind is a possible crux to the matter when talking of the EU Referendum and how 'the areas' voted. If you live in an area where you know of workers (friends and family) being gradually replaced in a warehouse/transport depot and EU workers have 'come in' for less pay then you understand what can and does happen. If you are of the belief this does not happen then you will view things differently. I use the word 'you' not in the context of yourself but as a generalisation so I am not making any assumption specific to any GN poster on a personal level.

Yes Ginny and I also omitted those who were too ill to vote/in hospital/ had other reasons not to vote.Why? because all that matters is the votes of the people who did vote.For those living elsewhere in the EU who were not allowed to vote, that is democracy....they do not live here, although of course they would all have voted Remain anyway.It was decided that only British citizens living here would be allowed a vote.
I am not worrying about Remainers being negative, just amazed that some still seem to think that because they hate the idea of leaving the EU, it may never happen.
I accept all non aggressive posts as non aggresive btw.

Far from feeling more optimistic as we get further from the referendum and accepting the inevitable, I am feeling more and more gloomy and worried for my grandchildrens future.

I am appalled at the level of ability of the Brexiters. Their clear lack of understanding of the issues and outcomes is disastrous, however much they may appear on TV grinning inanely trying to reassure the public. They give the impression of being continuously behind the curve, paddling like lunatics to keep up whilst trying to give a calm and confident front. It is incredibly worrying.