Scottish Referendum Autumn 2018 - Spring 2019

That's fine rar I know where I would prefer to spend my final years- Tory run England with no NHS, suffering massive deflation, and Brexited or a socialist Scotland still in the EU? No contest!!

But niggly most of us don't want to go anyway!

Trisher Scotland can't join EU!!

Well Guy Verhofstadt said today that Scotland could join the EU immediately.

Any chance of a divided England with those who've been whining for the last 40 years on one side of an inpenetrable wall?

trisher go for it! Housing is much cheaper there, but it's cold ( and rains a lot) and
I have heard that there are strange happenings beyond the wall, and remember.......
Winter is coming!

this is my last post on this .Its from John Jappy.

John Jappy....

"As a civil servant in London in the 1960s, and being part of the establishment, I always accepted the general view that an independent Scotland would not be able to survive on its own without financial help from the London Exchequer.

However, when in 1968 I was able to closely examine the UK’s “books” for myself in an official capacity, I was shocked to find that the position was exactly the opposite: that Scotland contributed far more to the UK economy than its other partners. And this, of course, was all before the oil boom.

I realised that the Treasury would wish to keep this a secret, as it might feed the then-fledgling nationalistic tendencies north of the border. I decided to keep an eye on the situation to see how long it would take for the true facts to emerge, which I felt would only be a short time. However, the machinery of Westminster, aided and abetted by the media, did an excellent job of keeping the myth about “subsidised” Scotland alive.

In fact it took another 30 years before the first chink in their armour appeared.

This came unexpectedly on 13 January 1997 when, in reply to a series of questions put by Alex Salmond (then an MP) to the Tory government of the day, Treasury minister William Waldegrave admitted that Scotland had paid a massive £27 billion more to the Exchequer than it had received since the Tories came to power in 1979, or around £5,400 for every Scot – a statistic which received barely any media coverage.

A year later, with a Labour government now in power, came a further bombshell. Following further promptings by the SNP, on 21 August 1998 Mr Salmond received a letter from the House of Commons Library (ref. 98/8/56 EP/rjt) which gave a table showing that based on Scotland’s GDP per capita, Scotland would occupy 7th place in the OECD wealth league. A second table showed that the UK was in 16th place.

Looking closely at the figures a few years later and taking the year 2006 as a benchmark, I found that Scotland had an annual relative surplus of £2.8 billion, which works out at £560 a year for every man, woman and child. In contrast the UK had a deficit of £34.8 billion.

Paddyann who are these blessed people you keep quoting to back up your hysterical desire to break up the UK? 2006 was not a good year to base your case on as you well know, the 2008 crash followed and Scotland, like the rest of the United Kingdom is still reeling from the effects. And please don't start bleating on about 'oor oil' or 'oor watter' (quotes from some of my independence favouring relatives), I note that none of them talk of 'oor RBS' and its associated scandals. We can all back up our arguments by cherry picking statistics, as you well know. It is not all one huge conspiracy by the media or by Westminster, I am not a fan of either, but lets have measured argument, not your usual hysterical anti-English rants. For the record, I think Ms Sturgeon has done this for maximum timing effect, and it is the last throw of her dice. She is hoping to stir up the nationalist fervour to distract the Scottish people from the chaotic mess the SNP have made of education ( once highly regarded), health, and other public services. This I know from family who are living with her crusade.

I'll ignore Gill and her hysterical rants and leave you a couple of calm pieces (that popped up on my facebook feed tonight) to contemplate overnight:

At this time of year, one of the rites of spring in our avenue is witnessing the camellia buds on the now mature bush in my front garden burst into life, heralding spring, and the promise of warmer weather, lighter nights, and much needed escape from the long dark nights of winter.
This morning, as dawn broke, and I slurped my first mug of life giving dark dark tea, I noticed with delight that the first bud had opened up overnight, a solitary reddish pink splash of colour in the gloaming.
It is a sign for the whole neighbourhood that the worst is past. Dog walkers pause to admire the show, neighbours stop to comment while I am spring weeding.
At today’s truly historic press Conference, the bright red of Nicola Sturgeon’s outfit almost exactly matched this first flower of the year.
Her announcement of Indyref 2 engendered in me, and I’m sure many others, that sense of relief and renewed resilience. The dark days are over. Spring has sprung. Caledonia Spring.
At today’s Press conference, it was clear that the gathered Unionist Fourth Estate had been caught on the hop: in scatological parlance, they had been caught on the loo, with their kegs ‘round their ankles, and suddenly discovered that there wasn’t any loo roll.
The Usual Suspects had hastily gathered, with nothing to throw at the FM but Project Fear Uno guff.
No Trade with England, borders, out of the EU, the parlous state of the Scottish economy, opinion polls indicating that the ‘Scottish People’ did not want another Referendum, the EssEnnPee neglecting their mythical ‘day job’.
Sarah and Severin, and the motley Fourth Estate Fifth column, lost for words.
Wonderful.
Tonight I walk with a lighter step, I am 2 inches taller, and I’m so proud of this remarkable young woman, and have nothing but praise for her conduct, her commitment, and political nous.
She batted off answers to every question with consummate ease.
I could not help but compare her presentation with the burblings of Mundell, the shrieking and whining of Dugdale and Davidson, and the buffoonery of Rennie and Cole Hamilton.
Would we seriously entrust any of them to govern Scotland?
Today is Day 1 on the Road to Self Determination, and by god, it feels magnificent.

Here's the 2nd piece:

I thought carefully about what to say about today's big announcement. Even I have politics fatigue. Then I saw this.
At an estimated cost of £100million, we in Scotland will be contributing to her Maj's new boat, like it or not.
And we won't get a choice about the £350million to do up her house either, or the eye-watering £5 BILLION to do up Westminster.
It is an insult, and a mockery to everyone who struggles, everyone trying to cope without work, with disability, with low wages, with childcare, and the host of other challenges that ordinary people face every day. And we have no choice.
Neither do we get to opt out of HS2, Trident, subsidies to power stations in Kent, London Cross Rail, or a host of other things that are no use to us, but will cost the Scottish Tax payer 10s of billions... while we here have foodbanks.
(At the same time Westminster has firmly chosen to opt out of paying anything for the new Forth Bridge, or any other infrastructure projects here.)
Of course, we also get no choice about being hauled out of the EU, and apparently our fishing waters, just like all EU nationals who live here, are to be a "bargaining chip" to be given up if something better is offered.... though personally I don't know what is better than securing the future of people I call my friends, or protecting the livelihoods of those on the coast.
Just before our last referendum, a friend told me they were voting No because they didn't want more borders, they didn't like the idea of cutting ourselves off from other people, and I could understand that. Except that now, the UK is going swiftly about cutting itself away from it's nearest neighbours, friends, markets, even simply away from the freedom we have enjoyed to travel, to work, to live.
And I for one, do not much care for the UK's new best friend. I want no part in being associated with anything that he stands for.
I know many of you are wincing at the idea of another referendum, of wading through the arguments again, of polarised views. But the point is this... Westminster gives us no choices. We were promised "like home rule" ... it never happened. We were left with no choices.
But today's announcement means we are being given a choice. A choice between more of this, more paying for yachts while children eat from handouts, more cosying up to Trump and joining him on the wrong side of the line, more of being regarded as so unimportant that our interests can be traded away, more borders.
Or you alternatively, you could choose something different. Something where you can have a say that means something.
A lot has changed since we last voted, the stakes are different, or we wouldn't be here again. But it will still be up to you, to your heart, to your head, to do what you think best.
So I'm not going to bombard everyone with lots and lots of politicking. Just take your time, have a hard think about what sort of place you want to live in, and what your place is in it.
And when your time to choose comes, remember how it feels to have a choice at all.

Well said. I think it's a joke that those who voted for the economic mess that is Brexit, can criticise Scotland for wanting to " take back control".

But Scotland's already an economic mess!!
I voted remain but things have moved on and changed. The Govt has to make the best of the mess caused by Brexiteers. A Scottish distraction is the last thing the UK needs. If SNP really cared about the best interests of Scottish people rather than their usual whining they wouldn't dream of the expensive nonsense of another referendum.

Maybe they would rather be an independent economic mess, a bit like the Brexit argument really.

Do you think they would be an independent economic mess suzied?

I just look at Greece - not enough money to pay people in govt jobs and cutting pensions etc etc. How could we possibly function as a viable country economically especially after implementing all the red tape/ boundaries/security/ customs and excise etc etc etc?

No I don't think they would be an economic mess, but the Uk is going to be come Brexit.

Elizabeth 1 and Mary Queen of Scots springs to mind.

paddyann revenue from oil last year was 60m, a pittance. As for we can survive on our own Wee Nicky as already admitted that for every £100 raised by tax she spends £127 so how just how is that sustainable ?

I know Jane10 and I apologise to you and everyone who thinks like you for my unwarranted outburst of temper. Bottom line people like me don't want you to go, but if you feel you must at least wait and see what the deal is then weigh up the pros and cons for Scotland, and if you feel you would be better away from the rest of us, so be it. Again apologies.

The UK is going to become Brexit?That doesn't make sense.The UK will be leaving the mess of the EU to make our own deals,both with the EU ( if offered a good deal) and other countries.We will still be the UK, and Scotland will still be selling more to the rest of the UK than to anywhere else.All this about the Queens yacht/house etc doesn't make sense either, as Scotland along with the rest of the UK has been paying for the Royal Family since year dot.So that so called 'calm piece' was also written, not only by somebody who wants independence but is a rebublican.I also never get all the outrage about Westminster, I used to live in Cornwall, that's a long way from Westminster too, but so what, we are all living in The United Kingdom ( the clue is in the words.)

I understood that ' once in a generation' meant in the life of a human being not of a hamster!!!!

In my opinion Brexit will be a disaster.

Scexit would pile chaos on top of disaster.

It may be too late to prevent Brexit but if you have a say in Scexit, please, please reject it.

Wales is a country with her language mlegally a language if the UK, she has a national anthem not a song under the pretence of being a national anthem .

Wales is a country

I meant a legal language of the U.K.

Granny23. I totally agree with your sentiments about royal yachts, HS2, Trident etc., but I didn't vote for those things either, I don't want a new royal yacht docked beside food banks anymore than you do, but I honestly do not understand how breaking away from the UK, with all that involves, is going to lead to an independant Scotland full of milk and honey. I do get angry, and do get irate sometimes on here because there are some ( not you) who misquote economic figures and make all sorts of silly and offensive anti English rants to justify their view point. This country, the UK is in a bloody mess, a mess exacerbated by the Brexit decision, and we really all need to stay together. I admire Ms Sturgeon's passion for her aim, I admire her tenacity, but I wish she would put it to better use, maybe telling Mrs May that food banks are not acceptable, that we don't need or want HS2, don't want or need the Chinese to build nuclear power stations, the SNP is a significant part of the opposition in Parliament, and I wish they would act as such, for all of us. She has her platform now, and I wish she would use it better.