Article 50 trigger 29th March

Totally agree with much of what you say DD and most of us are happy to discuss issues like mature adults.

Excellent post too anya and and I promise daphne never to call you a Remoaner although I don't think I ever have.

I expect to be told by the right wing press and leave propaganists that everything is just wonderful, until it becomes all too obvious that it's not, when it will all be the fault of the EU

But there you are again Nfk...

You write "hopefully". Have you actually thought through how things could work better for the UK? Sorry, but that's exactly the kind of hope which makes me despair.

Thank you Anya. That's the kind of discussion I want too, but apparently I'm "pompous" for not finding that the discussion on GN fits the bill. That's why I take my pomp off elsewhere for serious discussion.

I always travel hopefully. But quite honestly, I've been hopeful for so many years that the EU overlords would get their act together. Like ever since they decided to Empire build like fury and aim at becoming one unwieldy nation. I'm one of those who was happy with the Common Market. That was enough to maintain the peace and our individuality. And I know a lot of Dutch, French, et al, feel the same

I too was happy with the Common Market, to the point of enthusiasm for the reasons expressed by ND, but Empire building into one huge nation governed by Brussels with each federal state government reduced to the local authority, I don't think so!!

But due to the size the EU had a lot of clout when it came to things like mobile phone charges when on roaming and consumers rights and also workers rights - some of this may well go with the great repeal bill.

Big problems now with Gibraltar I see. I was surprised to see that their MEP(s) is the one for South West England.

So how exactly did this empire building affect you?

Don't forget that the European Parliament is democratically elected and the UK is one of the most powerful countries within the EU, because we have so many MEPs. The UK is one of the "emperors" - or was, until it shot itself in the foot.

I could add many other advantages to those mentioned by Welshwife, including cracking down on tax avoidance by big corporations and very wealthy individuals. The EU showed that it was more willing to do something about the situation than the UK. The UK has ultimate jurisdiction over some of the richest tax havens in the world.

Frankly, the UK will be taking back control from one organisation and handing it to big corporations, which are far less scrupulous and accountable than the EU. Corporations and individuals are far less wary of the UK, which is why some of them supported Leave.

I would genuinely be interested to know in what ways people think leaving the EU will benefit the vast majority of people. It's all very well moaning about something, but jumping ship is foolish if the alternatives aren't even being considered.

Why? The whole point of the Repeal Bill is to bring everything across as is. As was stated on Radio Four a couple of days ago, any changes will have to go before both houses and be debated. It'll be happening on and off for years as they plough through regardless of what party is in power. Most will stay the same.

Indeed!

I wonder how Leavers think the Northern Ireland and Gibraltar situations could be resolved.

Are you saying there won't be any changes? If so, what's the point of spending so much parliamentary and civil service time and money?

Of course there will be changes! Some MPs have already declared that they want to see working directives scrapped. Others are rubbing their hands in glee at the thought of changing environment laws, etc. That's why people must not give up now. The changes haven't even started.

As was stated on Radio Four a couple of days ago, any changes will have to go before both houses and be debated.

That's whitewash. If every single change to the laws which are currently affected by EU legislation were to be debated in Parliament there wouldn't be any time for other business and it would take years and years. That's why May is planning to use the 'Henry VII' powers (action by the Executive without reference to Parliament). Which would mean a huge loss of Parliamentary sovereignty. We fought a Civil War over Parliamentary sovereignty and it has been the cornerstone of our constitution for hundreds of years. In fact, it has been a source of great pride to us for much of that time and it has been taken as a model by other countries. But now, having supposedly taken back control we are now on the verge of abdicating it to a government driven by extreme rightwingers and most of the mainstream media. For me, this poses a far greater threat to our sovereignty than the EU ever has.

They have said that many of the EU laws which the Govt wish to change will be done by this Henry III law - which basically means without going through Parliament. They are talking of doing laws which affect working hours and benefits this way - things which Gove and Boris were talking about getting rid of before the vote to make 'business' easier. It will be interesting to see what other things are added to the list.

Crossed posts. Maizie.

The EU has never had much control over UK benefits. The UK is unusual in having means-tested benefits rather than contributory benefits, as most EU countries have. That's been the source of problems, because eligibility based on nationality has been ruled discriminatory. That's why the UK introduced the 'habitual residence' test.

I was about to post the same as Maizie and Welshwife. The government has absolutely no intention of letting Parliament discuss changes to the repatriated EU laws. What happened to democracy?

PS. It's not just whitewash. It's lies.

I'd go further, dd and ask 'What's happened to the 'sovereignty' we were supposed to regain'. Even dictatorships pretend to be 'democratic'; holding elections that they always seem to win...

I'd be interested to know what our Leavers think about this

I'm only repeating what what said on Radio Four. All present EU legislation, which the UK after all has already signed up to will come over into UK law. What needs to be amended will then be amended - going before both houses and being debated as happens to amendments brought before the house now. There will be laws brought into question such as the environmental rule about great crested newts - rare in Holland but not so in the UK - which needs changing perhaps in favour of say red squirrels. It all be debated. Much will stay as is after all we have agreed to it. We didn't veto. But there are some acts which need amending to make more relevant. It will be debated. And who knows what party will be in control when this happens. It could easily be Labour.

The constant attempt of the Government to usurp Parliamentary democracy is extremely worrying.

Daphne, although I knew UK controlled it's own benefits and the EU was never really the issue I had not thought about the way the UK means-tested benefits rather than the European contributory benefits was the root of this. Presumably the mainland European countries still have some way of assisting the poorest who cannot contribute or do they have contributions built in for them do you know?

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/24/europe-eu-european-union-60-years-old

By Juncker, last week.
"The EU has few powers in three of the four most controversial areas of policy in UK elections: healthcare, education and welfare.....Furthermore most immigration in Britain comes from outside the EU, where policy is made by the UK alone."

It was all lies. At least remainers never fell for them.

It may have been stated on Radio 4 and has been said several times about the laws all being moved across into UK law but it has also been said several times that the HenryVIII rules will be used to fast track some laws as to put all through Parliament will take too long - this is where Gove et al wish to get things changed u dear the radar - length of paid holidays etc being one point.

^ including tax avoidance by big organisations^
If any of you are interested read an article by Alex Barker and Vanessa Houlder in the Financial Times. It will tell you all you need to know about jean Claude Junkers attitude to big organisations avoiding tax.

Repatriated EU laws will not all be debated:

www.politico.eu/article/uk-to-use-henry-viii-powers-to-change-eu-laws-brexit-theresa-may/

Is this something else Davis made up as he was cleaning his teeth one morning?

...and changed his mind by the time he'd had his breakfast?