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Article 50 trigger 29th March

(1001 Posts)
Ginny42 Mon 20-Mar-17 12:08:21

Quoting breaking news in the Guardian. Davis is quoted as saying...

“The government is clear in its aims: a deal that works for every nation and region of the UK and indeed for all of Europe – a new, positive partnership between the UK and our friends and allies in the European Union.”

Feeling a bit in shock at those words, as at no time have I felt they are at all clear in their aims. The regions of the UK are disaparate with very different needs and fears. The nations of the UK have very different views of what is best for them, Scotland in particular being very forthright in stating their opposition to what is planned. Finally, what can he possibly mean by a deal that is good for all of Europe? Is he cynically saying EU members will be glad to see the back of us?

whitewave Sun 02-Apr-17 18:46:48

Wonder if he will. Blimey it all makes for interesting times doesn't it? Wonder if the Mail will support him? Presumably he will need some media support. Or perhaps not? Fox supported Trump.

whitewave Sun 02-Apr-17 18:43:52

I just knew the First Minister's statement that he was heart and soul British a load of bunkum

rosesarered Sun 02-Apr-17 18:42:39

Shouldn't this thread be renamed now that article 50 has been triggered and we are into April?

rosesarered Sun 02-Apr-17 18:41:40

Not soon enough.grin

daphnedill Sun 02-Apr-17 18:40:40

whitewave Arron Banks describes his group as a movement at the moment, so it's not subject to spending rules. It's called the Patriotic Alliance. Yes, he'll have to register a political party, before he can take part in elections, just as Britain First did.

durhamjen Sun 02-Apr-17 18:38:06

" Gibraltar is an outpost of an era that still exists only in the minds of the likes of William Hague. It’s a remnant of Empire and colonialism that has no place in a modern Europe, in which the UK apparently wants no part. And it is funded by its activity as a tax haven and centre for offshore gambling. The first activity is intent on undermining the global economy and the legitimate tax revenues of democratically elected governments. The other is wedded to destroying individual lives. Quite emphatically, this is a place that is dedicated undermining well-being.

That upset some Gibraltarians: I responded to their comments, and dismissed them all, here.

It was not the first time I’de discussed the issue on the blog though. I had done so several times before. For example, in 2013 I noted that time what Simon Jenkins had written of Gibraltar in the Guaridan, where he had said:

Such colonies claim to be “more British than the British”, except that they pay no UK tax and act as tax havens for funds from Britain. Gibraltar has made a particular specialism of internet gambling. Colonies claim allegiance to the crown, but not to its exchequer, or its financial police. They are Churchillian theme parks of red pillar boxes, fish and chips and warm beer. But they want the smooth without the rough. When the neighbours cut up nasty, they demand that those whose taxes protect them should send soldiers, diplomats and lawyers to their aid.

I entirely agree with him, as I also do with this comment he made:

Any study of Britain’s currently contentious colonies, [such as] Gibraltar, can reach only two conclusions. One is that Britain’s claim to them in international law is wholly sound, the other is that it is nowadays wholly daft.

Twenty-first century nation states will no longer tolerate even the mild humiliation of hosting the detritus of 18th- and 19th-century empires. Most European empires were born of the realpolitik of power, [such as] the treaty of Utrecht (1713). The same realpolitik now ordains their dismantling.

Precisely. As the UK unfurls, with a great many people now thinking it likely that Scotland and maybe Nor there Ireland will leave, with timing being the only point in question, we suffer the absurd situation of a former leader of the Conservative Party suggesting that we would go to war with Spain over Brexit negotiations to defend the right of Gibraltarians to self determination.

But let’s be clear, any such vote is rigged from the outset. Gibraltar is not willing to contribute to the UK: indeed, it devotes a great deal of effort to undermining it. And no Gibraltarian wants to pay UK taxes. But at the same time they demand we defend them. So what they are actually demanding is the right to free-ride off the back of the UK taxpayer at cost to Europe at large by running a hub for anti-social (at best) commercial activity. Of course they’ll vote yes for that forever. That’s like holding a referendum to ask if everyone in the UK wants a months free holiday in the Caribbean each year and being surprised that 98% of people said yes.

So let’s face facts. First, Gibraltar has no remaining defence role of any consequence to the UK. We don’t even keep a plane there.

Second, Gibraltar is a dedicated tax haven.

Third, leaving the UK’s support would make no difference to Gibraltar’s port services or tourism: they’re functions of geography. The people of the place will not need to suffer as a result of joining Spain.

Fourth, in austerity Britian let’s be clear that the only referendum the people of Gibraltar should be offered is one that asks if they want to join the UK, pay all its taxes, comply with all its regulations including on gambling, tax and company and trust law, and in return be provided only those services that leave it with a balanced budget after allowing for the full cost of defending it against Spain, running its borders, maintaining its new hard borders and all related costs. If this could not be done within UK tax limits then additional taxes would be payable, and that must be explicit before the referendum is suggested. Run a referndum on that basis and see what happens. I think some minds with might be changed. But right now Gibraltar is living in a fantasy world without apparent responsibilities or financial constraints that all the rest of us would love but will never enjoy and Tory politicians are pandering to that absurdity. Those politicians should be ashamed of themselves. The rest of us should point out their stupidity. "

Richard Murphy. Tax Research.
Didn't know where to stop.

daphnedill Sun 02-Apr-17 18:38:03

Same here, whitwave. I think Gibraltar is a ghastly place. It's like a throwback to 1960s Blackpool. Why do Gibraltarians get self-determination, but Scotland doesn't?

If I were Spain, I'd be thinking of swapping Gibraltar for healthcare rights for hundreds of thousands of UK ex-pats in Spain.

Now is not a time for military threats. We need skilled diplomats and people who understand how to make friends.

Come to think of it, did anybody bother about the East Germans who didn't want to be taken over by West Germany? Did anybody bother about the residents of Hong Kong who didn't want to be become part of mainland China? What about the Crimeans who dodn't want to be Russian? This sort of thing happens all the time and could have been foreseen. The EU was the glue which kept the whole of Europe together.

whitewave Sun 02-Apr-17 18:27:05

Mind you I don't blame them, you'd have to pay me to live there.

whitewave Sun 02-Apr-17 18:24:04

margaret it is more or less now. I think that is why they voted to remain for economic reasons, but want to stay in the U.K. for tax purposes. It's called having your cake and eating it.

Jalima Sun 02-Apr-17 18:23:07

plus Spain needs to look to their overseas territories

rosesarered Sun 02-Apr-17 18:18:23

No,no joint sovereignty either for Gib or the Falklands.The Spanish and the Argentines have to stop their aggressive talks and look after their own countries.Plenty of poor people to take care of in both Spain and Argentina.

MargaretX Sun 02-Apr-17 18:15:55

Don't you think a sort of British / Gibralter tax haven is on the cards- eventually?

The main point of Gibralter is as a navy base or has that all disappeared?

This business about the dark blue passports must be a joke. They were only attractive when you had your Visas in them and all the stamps from Switzerland, Italy and Spain
OMG to think we are all going back to waitng to have our passports whether blue or red, stamped.
Brexit will not put the clock back to happier days.

whitewave Sun 02-Apr-17 18:13:32

Which political party? He's given up ukip hasnt he? Probably not right wing enoughgrin He has to declare himself a political party first I suppose

durhamjen Sun 02-Apr-17 18:11:07

Whitewave, I like the idea that he works from a David Brent style office and used to sell car insurance. He must have done a few dodgy deals to be that rich now.
He and Steve Hilton are going to fund 100 people to stand against remain MPs at the next election. I didn't think you could buy constituencies any more - although that's what the Tories did in 2015.
It's so blatant now.

durhamjen Sun 02-Apr-17 18:06:53

That's a thought, Fitzy. How do they stand? Apart from off the coast of Argentina, obviously.
I wonder what Richard Murphy has to say about Gibraltar and the other tax havens.

Jalima Sun 02-Apr-17 18:04:54

I made a Charlotte Russe once I'll have you know grin

No, no, no not joint sovereignty!!
Spain needs to put its own house in order too re Ceuta and Melilla. Spain is worried about its own separatist movements as well.

Fitzy54 Sun 02-Apr-17 18:02:24

DJ a hard Brexit won't be derailed by the Gib problem. It's a soft Brexit that might suffer. But I agree some sort of joint sovereignty deal will surely be the answer and maybe the end of this ludicrous argument. Maybe the one good thing that might come out of Brexit! Falklands/Malvinas next?

whitewave Sun 02-Apr-17 17:55:29

Thanks for that. He also is owner of diamond mines in SA. Plus loads of other unspecified companies. Most is off shore so no tax to the UK. But he is happy to manipulate behind the scenes. Well not so much behind the scene really.

rosesarered Sun 02-Apr-17 17:54:42

Jalima grin that Charlotte Russe question was pure Mrs Bucket! Haha.

durhamjen Sun 02-Apr-17 17:52:44

twitter.com/gailebishop/status/848493817749807106/photo/1

Another bus.

durhamjen Sun 02-Apr-17 17:51:43

www.bitebackpublishing.com/books/arron-banks-brexit-diaries

whitewave Sun 02-Apr-17 17:51:05

djgrin and by default the British residing in Europe

nigglynellie Sun 02-Apr-17 17:48:02

I must say we kept well away from the apes having learned our lesson way back in 1962 when the carrier DH was serving on called into Gib for a minor refit, and we spent a lovely few days(visiting the apes!!) so it holds special memories for us!

durhamjen Sun 02-Apr-17 17:46:39

There are more than 3 million EU citizens working in the UK.
They can be bargaining chips, but not the people of Gibraltar?

whitewave Sun 02-Apr-17 17:45:21

Who are the bad boys?

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