Martin McGuinness

Jalima, we cannot and should not compare our troops or government with Syria
I agree with you absolutely anniebach but to read some posts on some threads you would think Great Britain, the British Governments over the years were the absolute epitome of evil.

All governments have pasts that have been at times pretty grim, even the peaceful Dutch are not exactly proud of their time in the Dutch East Indies. This constant harking back to the past that none of us can do anything about,mostly over 100 years ago, is just not conducive to moving forward in peace and reconciliation, which If we don't, there is no hope for any of us.
Oh dear, a terrorist attack, so much for my hopes!!!

My ancestors were mown down at the Battle of Peterloo in Manchester, August 1819. Troops were sent in to curb upitty workers. The survivors went on to work in mills in Manchester, where towards the end of that century life expectancy in Manchester was around 20 years of age. I've Welsh, Irish, Scottish and Polish relatives. Our latest family member is part Burmese. As a family therefore, we have our share of historical connections to oppression and empire. My point is, at what point do we become brave enough to accept out past isn't perfect and try to move forward positively.
On the relationship threads, there is always a lot of discussion about forgiveness, or at least acceptance and attempts to either reconcile or at least live in peace. Is it too much to hope we can achieve that in these islands.

As I understand it they took a wrong turn by mistake, and you're right it was a funeral, but whatever it was they didn't deserve what happened to them, and surely nothing excuses it?
As for Churchill, I was just commenting that at the end of the day be must have been preferable to Hitler even in South Wales.

Niggly, just read your post on the two soldiers, you are wrong sorry, they did not take a wrong turn, the Arny were told to avoid that area on that day, a funeral was being held and the soldiers drove amongst the line of cars carrying the mourners , no one accidently gets into a line of cars carrying mourners. They then drove to the churchyard, the one was giving the other soldier a tour of the area. He did not avoid the area he was told to avoid.

Niggly, what has Hitler to do with a 1911 strike ?

Very easy to criticise those whose job it is to keep us safe.

Have a look at breaking news NOW.

I'm sure South Wales hated Churchill, but they'd have hated Hitler more!!!!!

So amnesty for acts of terror however brutal are ok, but not for the army sent there to try and keep some sort of order under extremely difficult and at times terrifying circumstances. Remember the patrol who took a wrong turn and ran into an IRA, I think it was a wedding party, and were torn to pieces. But hey ho, that's fine, they were young British Soldiers and presumably for some people they deserved it, which of course justified it, and no one was guilty of their murder!

Harken back to Kilmainham Goal, it all started somewhere and it never ends.

They did well covering up Hillsborough and Orgreave .

Jalima, we cannot and should not compare our troops or government with Syria

Perhaps because Jal and nn as a civilised society we hold our soldiers to higher standards than the ordinary citizen. But yes if they were acting under orders and the train of command can be traced everyone involved should be considered for prosecution. Undoubtedly an atmosphere of permitted violence was rife at the time and individuals and those in authority should take responsibility for what. happened.
British governments are also good at covering things up and hiding the things they have done.

Just look at Syria

All governments are capable of bad things, it's not just peculiar to the British Government.

Paddyann, Churchill sent armed troupes to South Wales in the 1911 miners strike , he was hated in South Wales, so yes British governments are capable of bad things

I asked this question Jalima on another thread, but didn't get very far with it!!!! I believe that any amnesty should have covered ALL sections of this conflict. I read today that a soldier involved in the troubles is in fact being pursued in the courts for an incident that occurred forty years ago! He is now 75 years old. Other military personnel are also being considered for prosecution. Presumably they were acting under orders therefore if anyone should be prosecuted surely it should be those who issued the order or the MOD, not individual soldiers. The amnesty should be for all, not just for terrorist groups.

If they had an amnesty for murderers in Northern Ireland why did they not have one for soldiers who may have been following orders or believed that they were killing someone to protect the wider public?

* Fitzy 54 " lets just all believe the british army are all saints .....we KNOW they aren't there are bad soldiers just the same as there were bad on BOTH sides of the divide.IF the UK hadn't sent in tanks and guns it may well never have reached the stage it did .Why on earth do people believe the british state is incapable of doing bad things...maybe read about the massacres in India ....and Winston Churchills involvement ...or Churchill putting tanks on the streets of Glasgow after locking Scottish regiments in their barracks.That was a peacful demonstration too ...we were lucky they only arrested people and didn't shoot them.My granny was at that demo so I had it first hand .

So if it isn't intransigent attitudes merlotgran what do you attribute the 500 years of conflict to? It doesn't help matters when people constantly condemn one area or group and won't look at the wider picture.
I don't think anyone has suggested "forgiving" MM Granarchist simply moving on and finding a new path that doesn't condemn the next generation to the same conflict.

Firstly I'm with Norman Tebbit. Secondly I fail to see why MM's death was given such huge media coverage and why after that first quote by NT, the only quotes used were those that praised MM. I simply do not believe that the BBC and Other news media only received plaudits. Just looking at this thread, I think opinions are pretty much divided 50/50 with some caveats. I have strong Irish connections and lived through the London bombings of the early 70s. The first major bomb (Whitehall) nearly blew all our office windows out and too many friends were involved for me to feel sorry for MM. A good friend (a doctor) was on the scene when the bomb disposal officer was blown to bits on Kensington Church Street. That brave man left a wife and two children. Forgive MM? Sorry no.

trisher, I have a very good reason to hope peace holds out in NI as I have two DGS's who grew up there for seven years and spend at least three holidays a year with their father in what used to be termed, 'Bandit Country.'

Criticising anyone who doesn't share your opinions is pointless. People have every right to comment on what happened during the troubles because they HAPPENED.

I have an opinion which doesn't mean there's a problem with my attitude

It is attitudes similar to some of those posted on this thread that has led to a continuing conflict that has its roots not in the actions of the Black and Tans, not in the Easter Rising, not even in the Irish Famines but further back in time still, with Cromwell and before that the continuing efforts of the English to suppress any opposition in any neighbouring country. Whatever McGuiness did he moved on, why I don't know and I don't think many people do, but the bitterness and rancour will not bring back those who died and may lead to more conflict in the future. The Peace agreement has lasted almost 20 years, the conflict is over 500 years old. Let us hope peace holds and intransigent attitudes do not hold sway.

I suspect America's dwindling support of the IRA had a lot to do with McGuinness's change of direction. He knew a hiding to nothing when he saw one.

I can only speak as someone who served in the army at the grand old age of 18 in Northern Ireland for about 5 years in total from 1974.

I will not weep one tear for this man - not one.

I saw mans inhumanity to man up close and personal .

I agree, Iam64.