I'm tempted to call him a 'so-called' judge but basically he's a disgrace to the bench

dd why do you think I suggested a feminist board? Oops TAAT. As you were?

I have never been a supporter of identity politics (feminism, racism, etc), but I'm beginning to change my mind.

I'm astounded at how many women seem to think that other women should be treated as second class citizens.

What's wrong with these women? It seems as tough they accept that they are inferior, but are OK if they play the game.

Women are their own worse enemy.

I know Iam I know. It's so depressing isn't it? Frankly I'm sick and tired of this 'I've a right to my opinion' when it's not backed up by any evidence when evidence is clearly required to be able to have an opinion ( it's not as though it's an opinion on the best flavour of ice cream although a thread on that would no doubt lead to some posts saying salted caramel was best although I've never tried it.). What I really can't understand is why so many women on here want to twist things so that the victim can be blamed, or they say she's not a victim, she's a liar etc. Oh well, for me this thread has run its course - no one is going to change their minds no matter what you tell them about the way the criminal justice system works or the reality of male violence against women. Over and out

Rigby46 - we live in an age where 'experts' are derided. That would include Judge Lindsay Kushner, who is accused of victim blaming when she certainly was not. She was an excellent, compassionate and highly experienced, intelligent Judge.

We could all write endless anecdotal evidence in support of a particular point of view. Many of us could write factual information about our personal experiences, as JessM was brave enough to do. We could also write about our professional experience of working with women and children living with the horror of domestic abuse. The Courts are "beginning to see" and have been for the 35 years I worked in them, the reality of so called domestic abuse. It is nonsense to suggest that there are more liars than genuine victims.

Lazi and Jess good posts ( and sorry Jess that you went through that) . I believe it's true that the most dangerous time for a woman in terms of being murdered or badly hurt is when she has managed to leave. And yy to the victim blaming going on - I'm constantly amazed by the misogyny expressed on various threads on GN. So many post opinions that are based on wrong information - that's why Iam s post was so useful. I am particularly irritated by suggestions that judges are basing their decisions on what they 'know' is'really' going on

Choosing to leave a violent man is not as easy as it sounds. Been there. Done that. And the amount of aggression and anger that was unleashed after leaving was a great deal greater than that which had gone before. And this in turn had much more impact on the children than me getting hit, out of their sight.

I have known women who to outsiders looked as if they had a "choice" to leave an abusive partner but didn't take it because they were so terrified and controlled by their partner. Some were professional and had the means to leave. You cannot superficially judge another's relationship or motivation for staying in such a situation. A man who would rape a woman when she is drunk is in no way typical, and IMO would be a danger to women in any vulnerable situation. I also do not like the victim blaming tone of this thread.

So Rigsby , you want to shout your opinions to those who express their opinions and accuse them of bleating,

True story. I once employed a married female who regularly showed up for work on Mondays with bruising to her face. neck and arms.
Taking her to one side, I asked if things were OK. She opened up and it turned out that Friday nights were heavy rough sex nights with her husband where he humiliated and controlled her. While this was going on, the children were banished to the other end of the house.
Once she told me what was happening, both myself and the other staff were then subjected to weekly reports of their deranged sexually active weekends where he would slap her around and she would hit him back.
One day, after she'd given yet another account of how she got her bruises, I asked her if she had the means to leave him?
'oh yes, she smiled. I do. My father left me his house and money several years ago.
Then why don't you take your children, who were frightened of him, and leave?
Her reply was 'I will have my revenge one day but for now I'm not giving the bastard the satisfaction of letting him think he's won'.

I object to the idea that this woman was a victim when I remember how my own mother and her generation had no choice or means of escaping.

And Rigby, please don't assume I don't know how the system works. I do and I can see what the courts are beginning to see. It makes a mockery of the real victims.

Iam good factual post for all the difference it will make. I despair at the misogyny and victim blaming on this thread. Also the point that a not guilty verdict does not mean the victim was lying - the number of times I have heard the argument that when its a not guilty verdict the woman should be prosecuted for perjury. This happened a lot in the Ched Evans case. This is one of the problems when everyone bleats that they are entitled to their opinion - I just want to shout no you're not when you don't know what you're talking about and what you think you know is plain wrong

Some great victim-blaming going on here!

I agree with the judge who said women who get so drunk they can't protect themselves was correct. This makes a mockery of any other rape victim trying to obtain a fair verdict.

In the case with the cricketer, I surmise that the judge had evidence that the defendant had the opportunity to leave many times over. She chose not to. This undermines all those victims who simply cannot leave a bad situation and this is what the judges are saying. Unless you have a choice, don't bother bringing your case to court.
Getting so pissed you don't know what you're doing is a choice.
Unless you are a true domestic victim, which my mum was, stop wasting court time.

I have no idea how many not guilty verdicts have been brought in when the defendant is guilty, but I do know how many guilty verdicts have been brought in when the defendant has later proved to be innocent , I am speaking of crimes other than domestic abuse but they still involved the police, CPS, lawyers, jury and judge and a verdict.

Where is the evidence that more women are making false accusations? It's also not possible for "women to take cases to court out of vengeance". The woman makes a complaint, the police investigate. If the police conclude the perpetrator has a case to answer, the case is sent to the CPS. If the CPS conclude its in the public interest to prosecute and that there is a reasonable chance of a Guilty finding, the case goes to court.
I don't have current statistics but it's long been the case that few allegations of rape go to court. The same goes for domestic violence. Anyone who has worked in the Courts, for Probation, for the Police, any decent solicitor to name just a few, will confirm false allegations are rare. A Not Guilty finding is not (always) proof of innocence.

Rigby, I do know a couple of judges but I am making my own conclusions. There have been several high profile cases of women going to court claiming rape only to have been proved they lied. These cases undermine the progress that has been made so far for DV victims and women's groups so yes, in my opinion, which I'm allowed to have, I think the bigger picture is the law is suggesting don't bother bringing your case unless you are absolutely squeaky clean.

And you speak on behalf of judges and what they see how exactly nina. I'd be interested to have the evidence for that opinion

Hi Rigby yes there is evidence and lots of research. It's easier to Google it than to list it here though. Although they've had bad press the men's support groups have taken a particular interest in this. Sadly I was aware of that research when working with children and parents involved in separation and divorce.

At face value, it all looks wrong. But I think there is more to the article. My guess is that judges are seeing more women take cases to court out of vengeance. I'm not saying this is the case here but I'm sure it's part of it.
This is dangerous because now we have the law making discreet overtures and placing the responsibility back onto the women suggesting that women who really are in highly vulnerable situations may not be taken as seriously.
I think the law is sending a plain message. If you can protect yourself do so and leave the coffers available for those women who have been in situations where they could not protect themselves. They are spelling out the difference.

Re the judge and the cricketer...........there is a theme running through recent court cases. It seems to be saying;

If you get too drunk to stand up, the law can't protect you from being exploited.

If you agree to sexually explicit photos being taken of yourself during sex, the law can't protect you when they appear online.

If you are smart enough not to stay with a man who treats you badly physically and emotionally, the law can't protect you when he abuses you.

I still cant work out why the law allows vulnerability (or not!) of the victim to have any relevance whatever to the sentencing ...its the actions of the fond guilty perpertrator that are relevant to that surely!

Of course the high rates of male suicice is a real a cause for concern As are suicide rates in prisons and YOIs. But again it's a separate issue. And women can't rape - we should use words accurately on here. They can as you say be charged with sexual assault. Have you a link to the statistics on causes of male suicide and what % are as a result of being denied access to thrir children?

Of course DV is totally unacceptable regardless of gender but murder statistics are only one aspect of this. What about the high incidence of male suicide? There are many examples of men who are not allowed contact with their children following separation and false accusations from their ex partners resulting in men who have attempted, threatened and sadly taken their own lives in their despair.
As for women not being able to rape, not in the eyes of the law, but they can certainly be guilty of sexual assault. They don't need a penis to rape, but can and do use other implements. There is recent research that sexual abuse by women is much more common than was previously thought.
Understudied Female Sexual Predator
'According to new research, sexual victimization by women is more common than gender stereotypes would suggest.'
Food for thought.?

A single episode of DV or murder is equally serious of course it is but when the numbers are so skewed as they are between male and female, society has to engage with the differences, what causes them and what might make a difference. Women are hugely more at risk than men and you can't just look at it as a generic violence problem. Generally ( and I don't of course mean in all cases) women are physically weaker, often have access to smaller financial resources and have children to worry about. So yes larger numbers do make the overall problem more serious but not the ii pact on the individual. These are two separate issues - the societal and the individual.

I agree with Grandma23, violence and sbuse are unacceptable, numbers do not make them more serious crimes . Being driven to Suicide is realy being murdered

I agree there are unreported dv case - but on both sides- although I agree with men there is the 'shame' factor The figures for unreported partner rapes ( as with all rapes) must also be very unreported and women can't rape. But where your argument most clearly falls down is in the murder statistics which are pretty accurate. ONS figures show that 44% of female murder victims are murdered by their partners whereas the figure for men is 6% of male murder victims murdered by their partners. Family annihilations are mostly carried out by men as are most violent crimes in general. We simply cannot get away from the big picture of male violence and much of it against women. So when we discuss suitable punishments for these men and decry the judge's remarks, it really is misogynist to come on here and say women lie about being abused and women abuse as well . Of course but that's not huge problem that male violence is. A thread on female violence and its treatment by the criminal justice system could be started.