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Brexit all done and dusted?

(857 Posts)
Cindersdad Sun 02-Apr-17 16:47:13

As an arch REMOANER I for one (of many) will not simply roll over and say that is that. As things progress at the very least parliament must ensure that the country does not Brexit in a bad way because of "The Will of the People". So many lies were told by both side at the time of referendum that when the full facts come to light a re-think should be considered.

I have yet to hear a sound reason for voting LEAVE. Of course the EU is far from perfect but we are better trying to change it from within than sniping from outside. A general election or second referendum before the point of absolute no return.

I happen to be visiting Brussels on an educational trip after Easter so until then I will put up and shut up unless really provoked.

Cunco Mon 17-Apr-17 21:39:16

That's interesting, Varian. The 'will of the people' is an absurdity, so vote Liberal Democrat!

I've voted for several parties in my time but never Liberal Democrat, partly because, when I have found myself in opposition to their views on the EU or Keep The Pound, I haven't found them very Liberal or Democratic.

Time was, of course, when I voted the same way as Jeremy Corbyn on the EU. Does anyone happen to know if Dianne Abbott also voted Leave in 1975?

POGS Mon 17-Apr-17 22:09:47

Durhamjen 18.58

Am I correct in thinking you are advocating 'NOT' voting for the Labour Party in the Local Elections.?

I know you have championed voting for various other parties rather than Labour over the years but I thought having rejoined Labour you would be fully behind Labour this time.

Welshwife Mon 17-Apr-17 22:12:07

Tactical voting is what Jen is advocating - as is being suggested by other groups to send a message to the Govt.

Cunco Mon 17-Apr-17 22:15:59

I think this too is interesting on the subject of our Parliamentary Democracy and the 'will of the people'.

'The Parliamentary democracy we have developed and established in Britain is based, not upon the sovereignty of Parliament, but upon the sovereignty of the People, who, by exercising their vote lend their sovereign powers to Members of Parliament, to use on their behalf, for the duration of a single Parliament only — Powers that must be returned intact to the electorate to whom they belong, to lend again to the Members of Parliament they elect in each subsequent general election.' Tony Benn 1975

POGS Mon 17-Apr-17 22:21:27

Varian 19.18

" Do not waste your vote on Tories or Labour who seem to have abandonded their principles and acquiesced in this "will of the people" absurdity."

That's something Farron and Clegg would say also.

The Liberal Party promotes this:-

" all citizens shall have the right to think freely, to speak freely, to write freely and to vote freely;

I think the ' Liberal ' Party should change it's name if it cannot even accept 'the will of the people' is nothing more than an absurdity.

Anniebach Mon 17-Apr-17 22:32:05

The government got the message the morning following the Brexit vote surly?

Welshwife Mon 17-Apr-17 22:36:16

But maybe not the bull in the china shop way they are doing it when it was such a close thing.

Anniebach Mon 17-Apr-17 23:23:46

It cannot be changed though

daphnedill Tue 18-Apr-17 00:11:35

Why is it an absurdity? The "will of the people" is a meaningless phrase.

1 Brexit was not the will of the people. It was the box, in which most of those who voted on a particluar day put their cross, having not been given full information.

2 There were no agreed terms, on which Brexit would happen. Many people thought that £350,000 a week really would go to the NHS. Others thought it would reduce immigration. Some thought the UK could stay in the single market.

3 Freedom to think, speak, write and vote has nothing to do with capitulating to a majority.

4 By 2019, the "people" will be a different cohort.

daphnedill Tue 18-Apr-17 00:16:58

Modern design to protect against bumps and scraping of the head.
Zero VAT rated.

Cunco Tue 18-Apr-17 08:42:33

Daphne: On your definitions, the Referendum of 1975 was no more valid than the Referendum of 2016. Indeed, all Referendums committing countries to the EU or Single Currency would be equally invalid.

Your position questions the validity of all elections as they only express the views of the people at a moment in time.

So what it your alternative to democratic elections where the people direct Government or changes Government?

Anniebach Tue 18-Apr-17 08:47:54

So not a safety helmet , thank you.

daphnedill Tue 18-Apr-17 08:55:28

It appears you've misunderstood my position Cunco. I didn't question the validity of a referendum as a principle.

daphnedill Tue 18-Apr-17 08:57:01

It's advertised as a "protective hat" annie.

Anniebach Tue 18-Apr-17 09:03:39

Yes Daphne, I know. Protection from scratching the head. not a safety helmet . Big difference.

Cunco Tue 18-Apr-17 09:03:48

It appears I have, Daphne. Perhaps you could explain a little more clearly just what you mean and the implications of your position.

margrete Tue 18-Apr-17 09:59:32

In response to absent on Sunday, yes, the passport is still labelled 'European Union' on top of 'United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland'. I've just renewed mine and it cost £78.

No, Brexit is not 'all done and dusted'. I am a passionate Leaver. We knew from the beginning that it wouldn't be simple, but we were convinced it would be worth it. 'A messy divorce' - we were warned it would be.

'Changing it from within, making it better'? One of 28 countries, all very different, all with one vote in 28? Never going to happen.

POGS Tue 18-Apr-17 10:05:09

Daphnedil

I too am confused as to your point

'The Will of The People' is surely what a democratic vote outcome will be whether it be a General Election or Referendum. 'The Will of the People' is surely just another version of the 'Highest Percentage Vote Wins'.

If it 'an absurdity' what is the alternative?

If for example Labour wins the next General Election, which may be sooner rather later, would I be able to say the vote was ' an absurdity'.?

Anniebach Tue 18-Apr-17 10:09:36

Yes POGS, if remainers can say it anyone can.

margrete Tue 18-Apr-17 10:09:55

I agree with stillaliveandkicking. And yes, we've travelled extensively. Planning to revisit the Black Forest in June. And we've seen where Duke William's fleet sailed from in 1066, the estuary at St Valery.

daphnedill Tue 18-Apr-17 10:10:38

Oo-er! May is making an urgent statement at 11.15...hmmm.

daphnedill Tue 18-Apr-17 10:14:22

You're assuming POGS. The "will of the people" is totally meaningless unless constitutionally defined and it isn't. It sounds like something the Tooting Popular Front would have said in Citizen Smith.

Rigby46 Tue 18-Apr-17 10:40:00

In determining the 'will of the people' there is a huge difference between determining that 'will' through a referendum and through a general election.

POGS Tue 18-Apr-17 10:55:08

Referendum or General Election the larger share of the vote wins.

What do the terms "Will of the People", " The People have Spoken" "The Majority Share of the Vote" mean in relation to voting if not the larger share of the vote has won.

Why is it ' an absurdity'?

Do those terms only become 'an absurdity' if the vote is not agreeable to the individual maybe? In that case every election and Referendum is 'an absudity' to someone I suppose.

daphnedill Tue 18-Apr-17 10:55:09

The referendum was not legally binding. There’s no one source that can prove this statement true (although here’s a respectable one). That follows from the fact that the European Union Referendum Act 2015 didn’t say anything about implementing the result of the vote. It just provided that there should be one.

In other countries, referendums are often legally binding—for example, because the vote is on whether to amend the constitution. The UK, famously, doesn’t have a codified constitution.

A UK referendum will only have the force of law if the Act setting it up says so. In practical terms this would mean someone would be able to go to court to make the government implement the result. The Alternative Vote referendum in 2011, for example, was legally binding in this way.

Otherwise, as the High Court put it on 3 November:
“a referendum on any topic can only be advisory for the lawmakers in Parliament”.

So, purely as a matter of law, neither the government nor Parliament has to do anything about the referendum.
Some people who oppose Brexit take the argument a step further. We see images like this one on social media, highlighting the non-binding nature of the vote:
“Which bits of this [briefing] are MPs now acting as if they either did not read or did not understand?” asks the philosopher AC Grayling.
The arguments aren’t just legal—there are political ones too
This is where the argument slides from legal into political. Former diplomat Brian Barder says that:
“members of parliament owe the electorate their own best judgement of the national interest—taking into account the referendum result—not their obedience to the opinions of a narrow majority in a referendum or otherwise”.
The argument goes that, the referendum being “advisory” and Brexit being bad, MPs should refuse to follow the result. Some MPs agree.
But some people who support leaving the EU say there’s plenty of evidence that the referendum was politically binding. They say that the referendum process sent clear instructions to MPs that they should support the decision made by a majority of voters—even if the formalities don’t require them to.
They point to the fact that, during one of the debates on the referendum bill on 9 June 2015, the then Foreign Secretary said “decision about our membership should be taken by the British people, not by Whitehall bureaucrats, certainly not by Brussels Eurocrats; not even by Government Ministers or parliamentarians in this Chamber”.
Similarly, the government’s leaflet to all households advocating a Remain vote told voters that it would implement the result. This promise, too, does the rounds on social media.
Leaflets are not law, and the High Court has since told the government that it can’t keep this promise without the approval of Parliament. But that doesn’t stop anyone from making the case that MPs delegated the Brexit decision to the voters, and have no right to unmake it now.
A representative or a direct democracy?
In the end, the argument comes down to different visions for democracy in the United Kingdom. The conventional view is that ultimate political power lies with Parliament. The High Court came to its conclusion that the referendum was not legally binding guided by “basic constitutional principles of parliamentary sovereignty and representative parliamentary democracy”.
In a parliamentary democracy, as barrister Rupert Myers bluntly puts it, “the people are not sovereign”.
That’s why Nigel Farage, for example, accepts that the referendum result was technically advisory only, but says that “I would now wish to see constitutional change to make referendums binding”.