The art of persuasion

Esspee isn't new, are you, Esspee?

I've actually spent today teaching my grandson Hamlet.

Ah there is nothing good or bad but thinking makes it so - or something like that anyway?

Very appropriate, Jayanna.

To be totally honest, I am finding the sniping; condescending and snippy remarks that some posters make (and it's pretty much the same posters, no matter what thread they're on), really off putting. There have been so many threads that I've contributed to but then, when the sarky remarks get rolled out, I just leave the thread and move on. I don't want to read demands for "evidence" to back up a posters views or those dreaded endless url links; they don't contribute to a discussion, they become lectures and, imo, make boring reading, even if I'm interested in the subject. I don't think I'm alone in thinking this because I've noticed that, very often, many posters also stop posting their comments on those threads and it ends up with just one or two left who are in total mutual agreement which isn't really much of an open discussion! A good discussion is one where everyone voices their opinions but they have the good manners to respect other points of view without resorting to making anyone feel unwelcome or uncomfortable.

In my world Chewbacca, sharing information, referencing and making people aware of sources of information is normal and expected good manners; to you it is 'off putting'. In your world it appears name calling (condescending and snippy) and denigrating the way others choose to post appears to be acceptable, to me it is just bad manners but we all have different expectations and we will either have to put up with those differences, try and understand why other people are the way they are or give up and go and have a cup of tea and get on with real life.

No, I'm not new but have only recently noticed the stream of argumentative (just for the sake of it) comments emanating from the same quarter all the time.

I belong to another forum where, believe it or not, there are discussions which do not descend to name calling or insults. People can post differing views without the fear of their intelligence or level of education being denigrated.

Not new but always stirring perhaps Esspee?

Whose level of intelligence or education is denigrated on here Sunseeker? We cannot know either from a post; you don't know mine and I don't know yours.

However, everyone of us can acquire knowledge and test it to see if it is reliable, biased or fake. Even Facebook has got that message.

Ok, so that we can return to the understated elegance and calm discussion of antisocial attitudes that this thread was concentrating on before I was tempted to make a small mild joke, which then attracted the usual critics much as the smell of meat does a predator, I shall post an edited version.

Kipper - a whole herring, a small, pungent, oily fish, that has been split in butterfly fashion from tail to head along the dorsal ridge, gutted, salted or pickled, and cold-smoked over smouldering woodchips (typically oak). An oldfashioned English breakfast dish once favoured by the landladies of seaside guest houses, but now more often mentioned by stand-up comedians as a comic anachronism.

U-kipper - an MP member of the UK Independent Party or one of their voters. Often abbreviated to "Kipper" (see above).

GGM2 I don't know if you were a member during and just after the EU referendum but there were posts which called people stupid, unable to understand the issues and some stating they were better informed because they had been to university. I agree we cannot tell someone's intelligence or level of education from the posts on here and I would never presume that someone is more or less intelligent or educated than I am.

Ok, so that we can return to the understated elegance and calm discussion of antisocial attitudes that this thread was concentrating on before I was tempted to make a small mild joke, which then attracted the usual critics much as the smell of meat does a predator, I shall post an edited version.

... and this is supposed to smooth the way Elegran? splinter, speck and eye are the words that come to mind.

Good luck

I am out for a while now sunseeker but if you could find me one where someone is actually called stupid I would be interested to see it as that would certainly be unkind. It did lead to heated arguments though, on both sides with lots of mud being slung in all directions, if I remember rightly.

Yes I was around then but had a few months out with caring for a poorly mum but she has recovered now bar the 'normal' issues. That is why I just came back with the mark 2 bit on the end of my name - so I could be identified. I am never sure why people change names

I am sure there are others on here who remember the "stupid" comments - like you I am also too busy to sift through months of postings to find them.

Part of the problem seems to be people being offended by statistics. There was a good deal of analysis before and after the referendum about who would vote which way and why.

One clear fact was that less educated people were more likely to vote leave, but that does not mean that everyone who voted to leave is poorly educated or stupid.

Old people were also more likely to vote to leave but that does not mean that all leave voters are old or that all old people voted to leave.

It is a simple statistic - a correlation, an association of variables, not a statement about any individual and so it should not be taken as an insult.

Who said there are lies, damned lies and statistics? (I think it may have been Disraeli although some say it was Mark Twain). We all know that the way a question is asked can affect the answer received. One example someone gave was:

Do you think that working people should be taxed so others don't have to work

Do you think those who are unemployed should be helped

Both are basically asking the same question but the replies would probably be different.

That's why it's a good idea to quote the source of any statistics rather than relying on an unsourced interpretation of statistics.

"Part of the problem seems to be people being offended by statistics. There was a good deal of analysis before and after the referendum about who would vote which way and why."

Varian that is why I asked if sunseeker could find an example - it is not on to call someone stupid of course. However, I do remember the offence being taken at the statistics.

Whoever actually said the bit about lies, damned lies and statistics didn't live in modern times when there are so many people ready to check and question the figures. Computer programmes can be used which do the leg work for you and enable far more cross-checking and deeper analysis. So I do not agree with your rejection of statistics based on a saying made in other times and I do not think would hold water for anyone involved in research in this day and age Sunseeker.

Why, I wonder, do you need to go into Mark Twain or anyone else when someone quotes what are now the accepted figures for how people voted in the referendum. Levels of education could only be a possible marker of intelligence and capability if everyone was offered the same opportunities to have that level of education. We are very aware that the older population were not. So the level of education acheived may indicate many things but lack of it does not tell you that a person is stupid - it just doesn't and, as I remember it, no one was saying that.

Can I quote and repeat what varian said as it is really important "It is a simple statistic - a correlation, an association of variables, not a statement about any individual and so it should not be taken as an insult."

How do you 'teach' someone Hamlet?

There are loads of resources for teaching "Hamlet". Here's one:

www.rsc.org.uk/hamlet/education

Are you planning on becoming an English teacher Ana?

I have taught Hamlet. You read the text to students, translating where necessary and tell them what the play is really about. Procrastination. "To be or not to be etc.. Macbeth goes down better as he can be compared to a gangster.

Ana my guess is that you are not the slightest bit about how to 'teach' Hamlet. It's just another dig ( so you think) at DJ. Well it's petty and boring and says far more about you then it does about her sterling efforts in home schooling her dgs.

I used to show my students videos of Shakespeare's plays. It's the best way to elicit a response. Unfortunately one has to spoil the effect by dissecting, translating, and interpreting.