V.A.T, in school fees

Wow, eugenics as well, Gracesgran. Can you imagine those at the top allowing the rest to use it to make us all equal.
Redistribution of genetic wealth.

Must admit I listened with gritted teeth because I can't stand Toby Young.

anniebach Essex local authority has mainly comprehensive schools, apart from four grammar schools, which are super-selective. They take about 2-3% of the most able pupils.

Southend, although geographically in Essex, also has four grammar schools, which are much less selective, because it's a much smaller authority.

Essex parents try to get their children into the Essex grammar schools as a first option, then they try for one of the Southend grammar schools. Approximately 40% of pupils in Southend grammar schools come from outside Southend, mainly Essex. This affects the ability of the Essex comprehensives, because some of the most able have been "creamed off", although Essex is a mainly comprehensive authority.

The opposite happens in Southend. Parents try to get their children into the grammar schools, but if they fail, the parents then try for one of the Essex comprehensives, which achieve higher results on average than the Southend non-grammar schools.

The result is that Southend non-grammar schools don't have the (approximately) 25% most able. They also lose those children who have been able to get into Essex schools. Not surprisingly, the Southend non-grammar schools achieve low results, because their intake mainly consists of the least able. Of course, parents of able children in Southend don't want them to go to schools where most of the intake is of below average ability and course offered are generally "vocational", so they have little choice but to try for grammar schools or apply to an Essex comprehensive as first choice. It's just tough luck if a child has a cold or family issues on the day of the 11+ and their whole life and future is affected.

^Gilly, where did these awful children go if not to the sec mods?
Just because they're awful and bullies does not mean that some of them may have passed an 11+ in years gone by.

I didn't say that the children were awful Anniebach (although like most schools there will be a mix of nice and not so nice children). Even the poshest most expensive private establishment will have its share of horrors.

So glad we didn't move to Southend when our oldest was 12 then, it sounds a horrible place to live.

And speaking as someone whose child was quite poorly throughout her youth with something undiagnosed for years and took a three year 'vocational' course I would have disliked the snobbery that there would appear to be in Southend about children who take vocational courses as mentioned in your post daphnedill.
Incidentally she is now one of the most sought-after people in her area for her 'vocational abilities'.

To clarify my previous points:-

The all girls Grammar school I went to was full of bullies.

The school my DGD has been offered is awful.

I did pass my 11+ Jalima1108 heaven knows how I did, but I did.

I would have been much better off in a secondary school where it was less academic and more "hands on" subjects were offered. Instead I was out of my depth with the "cream" of the boroughs 11 and 12 year olds doing subjects such as Latin and Physics that I neither enjoyed or could get my head around. I hated it. I was a bullies dream. Not pretty. Lower working class, not fashionable (even strict uniforms have a fashion), my parents were old fashioned in their views and I could not talk to them.

Which sounds worse than 'bog-standard' gillybob

I meant 'sink' is worse than 'bog-standard'

There are bullies at all schools and I think girls can be worse than boys.
We seemed a pretty mixed bunch at my High School, one of the girls from an extremely poor background became Head Girl

Gillybob. I feel for your disappointment re; grandchild's school. Is it not possible for parents to move house if all else fails?

dd Southend sounds ghastly. Is it really as bad as it sounds?

My daughter lives in a Sussex Weald Village which has unusually a state boarding school. It's name suggests it is a grammer school but it is non-selective, and has an intake from a wide area. There has never been a move either by the Tory Council or parents - to change the school to a selective grammer. It has as you might imagine a high level ofmiddle class parents who also rejected academy status. They understand all the arguments very well indeed and are vocal in retaining the good comprehensive state LA funded school. Why break something that provides such an excellent level of education to ALL the children in the village? They all wear the same uniform, they all go to the same school with no "second class" children. Cruel to divide them all at 12. They all go off at 18 to their choice of one of about 6 sixth forms. Each offering the type of course that the child wishes to pursue. This varies from a tertiary college to various more academic college. My grandson is hoping to study initially at A level and then an apprenticeship leading to a degree in engineering (something to do with robots). So will leave many of his friends who are going to other colleges to pursue their chosen career.

That to my mind is how it should be. Treat all children with respect and care.

I also think that in an ideal world the child would be able to chose the type of school he wishes to attend, but quite honestly it is far too young at 12 to decide ones future. Children change tremendously between 12 and 18 and to force them along a particular path at 12 is ridiculous.

The school close to my DGD calls itself "non-selective" whitewave but really couldn't be any more selective if it tried. It only has places for the children from it's "seleced" feeders, which just so happen to be situated in the most affluent areas of the borough. 2 of which are miles away from the school.

Treat all children with respect and care

Couldn't agree more.

This school is genuinely non-selective. All children from a numerous villages are bused in.

I agree that most 11 year olds really don't know enough to chose their secondary school and that should be left to their parents.

Living in a rural area, we sent ours to the small local community comprehensive and although it was short of funds and various resources, they did well and some of their classmates did spectacularly well. This was a school which had just been changed from a secondary modern to an 11-16 comprehensive.

Someone I know actually did chose his school at the age of eleven. He sat and passed the exam for a highly selective fee-paying school which his brother attended but insisted on going to his local state school. He sailed through university and ended up with a PhD.

Clever, motivated children with supportive parents will always do well. Perhaps we should just select the others for extra help.

In any event, charging vat on school fees and using the money to pay for free meals for all state school children is a quite ridiculous idea, whether or not either or both have merit in themselves, and I've not seen one post which makes any serious attempt at explaining why it might be sensible to link these policies.

The sums it up very neatly Fitzy

All that Fitzy54.

I agree, if free school meals for all primary age children is a good idea ( not sure about it though) then it should be funded but not on the back of VAT charged to parents who pay fees for their children.Sounds like the politics of envy.

Gosh " politics of envy" there's a blast from the past

I think singling out a small section of people is wrong , if they were forced to pay I do believe some would see it as a victory against a class of people.

7% of UK children go to private schools. My guess is that few of the remaining 93% care very much about the "suffering" of the 7%. One of the selling points of the Leave campaign was that it would be a victory against the élite.

Gosh " politics of envy" there's a blast from the past
But that is what Corbyn is, isn't he?
a blast from the past

Not sccirdung to Diane Abbott who has written - Jeremy Corbyn is indespensable to forging new politics , he is our best hope of delivering a clear alternative to to the tories.

McDonald has expressed regret for claiming there is a soft coup being carried out by the centre left labour MP's.

He also said Corbyn has the potential to become the most transformative Labour PM since Attlee

Oh deary me

What, even though most of the media and on here have rubbished his VAT on private fees to pay for school meals idea?

McDonnell swings from one side to the other - wonder what's going on now?