V.A.T, in school fees

To my mind the choice of child that goes to a Grammer school is totally arbitray.

There are artificial lines which make no educational sense whatsoever drawn up that separates children at 11 or 12 which state that " you are good enough and you aren't"
Quite wrong in my opinion. In fact you could argue that if more resources and better qualified teachers go into grammars, than those children that would benefit most are those that are struggling. Children that find academia a doddle will survive and attain regardless of the regime.

Whitewave the process certainly isn't totally arbitrary, but it's also a long way short of perfect. Moreover there are children that undoubtedly benefit from going to a grammar. But in terms of overall benefit, comprehensive education with appropriate setting/streaming must be best.

Teachers and academics I follow on twitter have big disagreements about many aspects of practice and pedagogy (well, mostly the teachers do) but they are unanimous in opposing the introduction of more grammar schools. It's not political bias either as they cover a whole range of political beliefs.

We seem to have wandered a long way from the OP, and in fact had this thread about Grammar Schools just about six months ago.Is this what getting older means?

Nothing like making a thoughtful contribution to the discussion, roses

They were all wearing cardigans and pearls, and court shoes
I had a good giggle at that Lillie, the thought of grammar school girls wearing cardigans and pearls. Many came from poor backgrounds or 'just about managing' homes.

I am not pro selective education particularly, but I hope that comprehensives are encouraging and teaching to a higher standard than some did a few years ago.

Sorry, still wandering off the thread but I wanted to explain why I asked that question.

To get back to the point - the dinners were apparently better at the girls' Secondary Modern than they were at the High school.
Did we pay for them in those days? I can't remember, but no-one took a packed lunch and only about two girls went home for lunch and had to have written permission.

The secondary moderns provided a very poor standard of secondary education
I cannot agree with that as the local single sex secondary modern schools in the town where I grew up were excellent; some of my friends went to them and they had good results and went on to Technical College or to do good apprenticeships.
And the dinners were better

Sorry to wander off the OP again.

I made a few pertinent observations on the Grammar school thread the last time round, really can't be bothered to start it all again.

That was to Maizie

I will say no more

Except that I didn't enjoy school dinners

me neither!

Dinners were ok, hated some of the puddings! Semolina with jam?

Plenty of food for thought in this discussion!

Two weeks of sandwiches for lunch and I'm looking forward to returning to yummy school lunches - see example of choices.

No vegans, then?

Ha Ha, Jen don't even get me started on vegans, halal, kosher etc.!

I see Tacos has been given an apostrophe! Sigh...

Ooh yes, well spotted Ana. Must tell the Spanish chef!

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

The parents of pupils who don't get into the Southend grammar schools do their best to get them into the Essex comps. Essex and Southend are different authorities. Value added scores show that these pupils do just as well in the comps. However, it means that the remaining Southend (so-called) comprehensives are sink schools with an even worse intake than the secondary moderns.

I think the main reason for my DGD not getting a place in the school that is literally on her door step stems from parents knowing that the only way to secure a place for their child in what is arguably one of the best (if not THE best) secondary schools in the borough, is to get them into a feeder primary even if they have to travel from miles away. It is a means to the end of eventually securing the (much coveted)secondary school place. The result of this is that children moving into the area after the age of 4 have no chance whatsoever of getting into the school as all of the places have been already allocated 7 years previously.

I think both the pro and anti-grammar school posters should listen to "The Rise and Fall of Meritocracy" I came away from it thinking we should be spending more of our energy making the gap smaller between the top and the bottom of pay rather than worrying about Grammar Schools. I was a programme that definitely gave pause for thought.

Daphne,will you explain what you mean by - sink schools with an even worse intake than the secondary moderns?

I am nether pro nor anti grammar schools. I went to a grammar myself and wasted my time there. Someone more deserving should have had my place. It was a horrible all girls school, full of bullies.

I would just like to see a situation where all schools are good schools. It is "choice" that has created this massive divide with parents choosing to travel miles to get their child into the "best" school creating a kind of "non desirable" tier of schools, which has a knock on effect.

My DGD has been offered a place at one of "these" schools Anniebach. The school that no-one "chooses" to go to. The school that will always have places. The school who's Ofsted report is diabolical. A school who cannot recruit or retain good teachers. A school that one bus company refused to pick up children from. I could go on.

Gilly, where did these awful children go if not to the sec mods?