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What is 'far left'?

(222 Posts)
MaizieD Fri 12-May-17 16:39:09

dd asked this question on another thread. I can't possibly answer it because I think it's a catch all term which means different things to different people. However, various labels have been mentioned, such as communism, socialism and Marxism, I presume as illustrating 'far left' thinking and it set me thinking.

Marxism is a term which interests me because Marx's ideas were at the basis of communism. Marx as a sociologist was briefly covered in my degree course and I thought his analysis of society was interesting. I still do. On the other hand, I think he spent too much time sitting in the Reading Room of the British Museum and failed to take the reality of human nature into account. His theory of 'communism' quite failed to recognise that no two people think alike and that 'man' is not inherently noble and disinterested. We know from history just what happens in Communist countries and it in no way resembled the workers' nirvana that he visualised. It produced a society that was as hierarchical, repressive and unfair as the contemporary societies he analysed.

However, I think his work offers food for thought as to how societies might be better organised.

These are extracts from a review of his work which I think are still relevant today.

So what was it that made Karl Marx so important? At the cornerstone of his thinking is the concept of the class struggle. He was not unique in discovering the existence of classes. Others had done this before him. What Marx did that was new was to recognize that the existence of classes was bound up with particular modes of production or economic structure and that the proletariat, the new working class that Capitalism had created, had a historical potential leading to the abolition of all classes and to the creation of a classless society. He maintained that “the history of all existing society is a history of class struggle”. Each society, whether it was tribal, feudal or capitalist was characterized by the way its individuals produced their means of subsistence, their material means of life, how they went about producing the goods and services they needed to live. Each society created a ruling class and a subordinate class as a result of their mode of production or economy. By their very nature the relationship between these two was antagonistic. Marx referred to this as the relations of production. Their interests were not the same. The feudal economy was characterized by the existence of a small group of lords and barons that later developed into a landed aristocracy and a large group of landless peasants. The capitalist economy that superseded it was characterized by a small group of property owners who owned the means of production i.e. the factories, the mines and the mills and all the machinery within them. This group was also referred to as the bourgeoisie or capitalist class. Alongside them was a large and growing working class. He saw the emergence of this new propertyless working class as the agent of its own self emancipation. It was precisely the working class, created and organized into industrial armies, that would destroy its creator and usher in a new society free from exploitation and oppression. “What the bourgeoisie, therefore, produces, above all, is its own grave-diggers”.

His analysis of 'class' was pretty sound, the bit in bold is what we know he was mistaken about.

^ With the evolution of modern industry, Marx pointed out that workmen became factory fodder, appendages to machines. Men were crowded into factories with army-like discipline, constantly watched by overseers and at the whim of individual manufacturers. Increasing competition and commercial crises led to fluctuating wages whilst technological improvement led to a livelihood that was increasingly precarious. The result was a growth in the number of battles between individual workmen and individual employers whilst collisions took on more and more “the character of collisions between two classes”.^

why is it that Marx felt that the existence of classes meant that the relationship between them was one of exploitation?
In the course of the working day, Marx reasoned, workers produce more than is actually needed by employers to repay the cost of hiring them. This surplus value, as he called it, is the source of profit, which capitalists were able to put to their own use. For instance, a group of workers in a widget factory might produce a hundred widgets a day. Selling half of them provides enough income for the manufacturer to pay the workers’ wages. income from the sale of the other half is then taken for profit. Marx was struck by the enormous inequalities this system of production created. With the development of modern industry, wealth was created on a scale never before imagined but the workers who produced that wealth had little access to it. They remained relatively poor while the wealth accumulated by the propertied class grew out of all proportion. In addition, the nature of the work became increasingly dull, monotonous and physically wearing to the workforce who became increasingly alienated from both the products they were creating, from their own individuality and from each other as human beings.

Sound familiar?

The political system, the legal system, the family, the press, the education system were all rooted, in the final analysis, to the class nature of society, which in turn was a reflection of the economic base.

*This did not mean that education and teaching was a sinister plot by the ruling class to ensure that it kept its privileges and its domination over the rest of the population. There were no conspirators hatching devious schemes. It simply meant that the institutions of society, like education, were reflections of the world created by human activity and that ideas arose from and reflected the material conditions and circumstances in which they were generated*

...the individuals who make up the ruling class of any age determine the agenda. They rule as thinkers, as producers of ideas that get noticed. They control what goes by the name “common sense”. Ideas that are taken as natural, as part of human nature, as universal concepts are given a veneer of neutrality when, in fact, they are part of the superstructure of a class-ridden society. Marx explained that “each new class which puts itself in the place of the one ruling before it, is compelled, simply in order to achieve its aims, to represent its interest as the common interest of all members of society i.e. ..to give its ideas the form of universality and to represent them as the only rational and universally valid ones”. Ideas become presented as if they are universal, neutral, common sense. However, more subtly, we find concepts such as freedom, democracy, liberty or phrases such as “a fair days work for a fair days pay” being banded around by opinion makers as if they were not contentious. They are, in Marxist terms, ideological constructs, in so far as they are ideas serving as weapons for social interests. They are put forward for people to accept in order to prop up the system.

I think this is fair analysis, too. It is also a very simplified version of a large body of work.

The questions in my mind are:

"How far are people willing to accept that the situation Marx analyses is inevitable and has to be lived with?"

And

"Is it reasonable to be influenced by Marx's analysis as a basis for altering the balance in society to ensure a more equable distribution of resources without actually wanting to overthrow the status quo?"

MaizieD Wed 17-May-17 19:58:16

I love the assumption that it is the woman who gives up her job to be a carer.

whitewave Wed 17-May-17 19:59:17

grin

rosesarered Wed 17-May-17 20:11:52

ww you seem to be following Maizie around and grinning a lot.......are you a double act?
I should think it usually is a woman more often than not who decides to be a carer.
It must be a hard decision to give up work and look after a relative and not everybody would be able to do it, but some do, and up until now it meant losing your job, the new policy means you could take up to a year and still have your job at the end of it.Sounds an improvement to me.

MaizieD Wed 17-May-17 20:15:54

To claim Carer's Allowance you must:

Be aged 16 or over
Spend at least 35 hours a week looking after the person in need of care
Have net earnings of less than £116 a week. Any childcare costs or replacement care costs associated with working can be deducted from your earnings when calculating whether you qualify. For more information see work-related costs and Carer's Allowance
...
In addition, the person for whom you care must be claiming (or waiting to hear about)

Attendance Allowance £55 - £83 pw
Disability Living Allowance (middle or higher rate for personal care) £22 - £83 pw
Constant Attendance Allowance at or above the normal maximum rate with an Industrial Injuries Disablement Benefit £33 - £135 pw (highest amount is 'exceptional')
Constant Attendance Allowance at the basic (full day) rate with a War Disablement Pension
Personal Independence Payment (Daily Living Component at either Standard or enhanced rate) for those age 16 - 64 only. Replaces DLA £22-£141 pw depends on assessed need

So, if someone gives up work to become a full time carer for a year does that mean there is an increased cost to the state in benefits? (not to mention loss of the worker's income tax & NI)

MaizieD Wed 17-May-17 20:17:00

are you a double act

Well, it makes a change from you and Ana...

whitewave Wed 17-May-17 20:18:36

Tweedledum and tweedledee

rosesarered Wed 17-May-17 20:19:03

Is Ana even on this thread?

rosesarered Wed 17-May-17 20:23:20

Why I wonder ,do left wing posters always have to be right/ aggressive/ rude
Is this a left wing trait? Because reading all the political threads a person could be forgiven for thinking that.
Or is it because you know you will lose this GE just like the last one? hmm

MaizieD Wed 17-May-17 20:28:01

Perhaps they take their cue from the Right wing voters, roses.wink

I think there's plenty of six of one and half a dozen of the other..

To be fair, Ana does seem to have deserted you recently.there was a time when a comment from you guaranteed a back up one from her...

rosesarered Wed 17-May-17 20:33:39

I haven't seen one right wing post being snipey on here.
No, there is not half a dozen of one etc it's all from the very left wing side.
Ana no doubt has better things to do than cross swords with armchair revolutionaries on here.

Ana Wed 17-May-17 20:35:20

What's 'fair' about that comment MaizieD? I havven't deserted roses at all.

There are so many left wing supporters on GN it hardly seems worth challenging any of their views. It's all the same old, same old - as it will be after the GE result...sigh.

Ana Wed 17-May-17 20:36:31

x posts roses - ooh, are we in cahoots again? grin

durhamjen Wed 17-May-17 20:37:07

You could just leave us to it.
What are you doing on a thread about something you don't care about?

rosesarered Wed 17-May-17 20:37:51

Recently a new poster commented that she had come to GN because her other forum was 'about 40 pages of lefties all agreeing with one another' ( when they had chased any dissenting voices away) and sadly that is now exactly what the political pages on here are like.

MaizieD Wed 17-May-17 20:38:22

Go on, admit it, you're the same person, aren't you? hmm

rosesarered Wed 17-May-17 20:38:55

I rest my case!

MaizieD Wed 17-May-17 20:40:00

Don't you have anything to contribute apart from moaning about being badly treated, roses?

thatbags Wed 17-May-17 20:41:16

"You could just leave it to us".

What a give-away that it's agreement that's wanted rather than actual discussion. Long suspected but now out of the horse's mouth. Well, well.

Ana Wed 17-May-17 20:43:23

You could just leave us to it.

You'd love that, wouldn't you durhamjen? Just you, your links and your fellow socialists all agreeing with each other.

I do sometimes wonder why you don't just join a political forum - or might that be a bit too challenging for you?

Ana Wed 17-May-17 20:44:14

x poata...

rosesarered Wed 17-May-17 20:52:50

I would say that I contribute reasonably on here, although I don't give in to demands from other posters.
It's a sad state of affairs really when all some really want is nodding heads.

durhamjen Wed 17-May-17 20:53:15

What's the point of coming on a thread if all you are going to do is complain about the people on the thread?
The people who wish to discuss what far left means?
The people who care about the far left and being called far left when they are nothing but?

How do you know I am not on political forums, Ana?
In fact, I think you can safely assume that I am.
I enjoy Gransnet because there are many people who think like me, and there are many who think differently, but are prepared to say why.
Unlike others, who just carp. Such a shame to waste their time like that.

Ana Wed 17-May-17 20:58:55

The people who care about the far left and being called far left when they are nothing but?

That makes no sense at all. Obviously you're getting het up again...

nigglynellie Wed 17-May-17 21:16:46

The trouble with the far left is their arrogance and intolerance, that combined with childish comments worthy of the kindergarten makes it impossible for others to have an conversation of differing opinions in a civilised adult fashion without sneers and downright rudeness. I would love to be able to chat to others about their beliefs and attitudes that differ from mine, but what would be the point, why make you and someone else a target for derision. It's disappointing, but there you go! best to let them get on with it, save your breath and sanity!

Anniebach Wed 17-May-17 21:33:19

A few porkies I fear.

I am a socialist but I like posters here who are not, they have a sense of humour and don't flood threads with links, or post googled epistles, they put their views forward themselves.

Jen, you do not like anyone disagreeing with you, else why tell a poster to shut up because they disagreed with you.

And, Ridesarered is speaking the truth, because I am a Labour Party member I have received PM's from labour supporters who fear posting here on political threads because the aggressiveness of several of the far left posters . A pity because it would give Niggly and others the chance she and they want to chat to posters of different views