Gransnet forums

News & politics

What is 'far left'?

(222 Posts)
MaizieD Fri 12-May-17 16:39:09

dd asked this question on another thread. I can't possibly answer it because I think it's a catch all term which means different things to different people. However, various labels have been mentioned, such as communism, socialism and Marxism, I presume as illustrating 'far left' thinking and it set me thinking.

Marxism is a term which interests me because Marx's ideas were at the basis of communism. Marx as a sociologist was briefly covered in my degree course and I thought his analysis of society was interesting. I still do. On the other hand, I think he spent too much time sitting in the Reading Room of the British Museum and failed to take the reality of human nature into account. His theory of 'communism' quite failed to recognise that no two people think alike and that 'man' is not inherently noble and disinterested. We know from history just what happens in Communist countries and it in no way resembled the workers' nirvana that he visualised. It produced a society that was as hierarchical, repressive and unfair as the contemporary societies he analysed.

However, I think his work offers food for thought as to how societies might be better organised.

These are extracts from a review of his work which I think are still relevant today.

So what was it that made Karl Marx so important? At the cornerstone of his thinking is the concept of the class struggle. He was not unique in discovering the existence of classes. Others had done this before him. What Marx did that was new was to recognize that the existence of classes was bound up with particular modes of production or economic structure and that the proletariat, the new working class that Capitalism had created, had a historical potential leading to the abolition of all classes and to the creation of a classless society. He maintained that “the history of all existing society is a history of class struggle”. Each society, whether it was tribal, feudal or capitalist was characterized by the way its individuals produced their means of subsistence, their material means of life, how they went about producing the goods and services they needed to live. Each society created a ruling class and a subordinate class as a result of their mode of production or economy. By their very nature the relationship between these two was antagonistic. Marx referred to this as the relations of production. Their interests were not the same. The feudal economy was characterized by the existence of a small group of lords and barons that later developed into a landed aristocracy and a large group of landless peasants. The capitalist economy that superseded it was characterized by a small group of property owners who owned the means of production i.e. the factories, the mines and the mills and all the machinery within them. This group was also referred to as the bourgeoisie or capitalist class. Alongside them was a large and growing working class. He saw the emergence of this new propertyless working class as the agent of its own self emancipation. It was precisely the working class, created and organized into industrial armies, that would destroy its creator and usher in a new society free from exploitation and oppression. “What the bourgeoisie, therefore, produces, above all, is its own grave-diggers”.

His analysis of 'class' was pretty sound, the bit in bold is what we know he was mistaken about.

^ With the evolution of modern industry, Marx pointed out that workmen became factory fodder, appendages to machines. Men were crowded into factories with army-like discipline, constantly watched by overseers and at the whim of individual manufacturers. Increasing competition and commercial crises led to fluctuating wages whilst technological improvement led to a livelihood that was increasingly precarious. The result was a growth in the number of battles between individual workmen and individual employers whilst collisions took on more and more “the character of collisions between two classes”.^

why is it that Marx felt that the existence of classes meant that the relationship between them was one of exploitation?
In the course of the working day, Marx reasoned, workers produce more than is actually needed by employers to repay the cost of hiring them. This surplus value, as he called it, is the source of profit, which capitalists were able to put to their own use. For instance, a group of workers in a widget factory might produce a hundred widgets a day. Selling half of them provides enough income for the manufacturer to pay the workers’ wages. income from the sale of the other half is then taken for profit. Marx was struck by the enormous inequalities this system of production created. With the development of modern industry, wealth was created on a scale never before imagined but the workers who produced that wealth had little access to it. They remained relatively poor while the wealth accumulated by the propertied class grew out of all proportion. In addition, the nature of the work became increasingly dull, monotonous and physically wearing to the workforce who became increasingly alienated from both the products they were creating, from their own individuality and from each other as human beings.

Sound familiar?

The political system, the legal system, the family, the press, the education system were all rooted, in the final analysis, to the class nature of society, which in turn was a reflection of the economic base.

*This did not mean that education and teaching was a sinister plot by the ruling class to ensure that it kept its privileges and its domination over the rest of the population. There were no conspirators hatching devious schemes. It simply meant that the institutions of society, like education, were reflections of the world created by human activity and that ideas arose from and reflected the material conditions and circumstances in which they were generated*

...the individuals who make up the ruling class of any age determine the agenda. They rule as thinkers, as producers of ideas that get noticed. They control what goes by the name “common sense”. Ideas that are taken as natural, as part of human nature, as universal concepts are given a veneer of neutrality when, in fact, they are part of the superstructure of a class-ridden society. Marx explained that “each new class which puts itself in the place of the one ruling before it, is compelled, simply in order to achieve its aims, to represent its interest as the common interest of all members of society i.e. ..to give its ideas the form of universality and to represent them as the only rational and universally valid ones”. Ideas become presented as if they are universal, neutral, common sense. However, more subtly, we find concepts such as freedom, democracy, liberty or phrases such as “a fair days work for a fair days pay” being banded around by opinion makers as if they were not contentious. They are, in Marxist terms, ideological constructs, in so far as they are ideas serving as weapons for social interests. They are put forward for people to accept in order to prop up the system.

I think this is fair analysis, too. It is also a very simplified version of a large body of work.

The questions in my mind are:

"How far are people willing to accept that the situation Marx analyses is inevitable and has to be lived with?"

And

"Is it reasonable to be influenced by Marx's analysis as a basis for altering the balance in society to ensure a more equable distribution of resources without actually wanting to overthrow the status quo?"

Anniebach Wed 17-May-17 21:34:47

Sod this, Rosesarered, may I shorten your name please ?

rosesarered Wed 17-May-17 21:37:10

Yes, do Rose or Roses is fine, or Rar.grin

Anniebach Wed 17-May-17 21:39:29

Did you notice I called you riderarered? grin sorry

CariGransnet (GNHQ) Wed 17-May-17 21:47:08

A reminder that while we welcome spirited debate and appreciate that people have differing views that can become particularly heated around the time of a referendum or election, we ask you to express those views - however strongly - without denigrating the views of those who may not share them. Disagree as much as you like, but please stay within our (very few) guidelines. You may not share someone else's opinions but they are as entitled to express their views as the next person.

rosesarered Wed 17-May-17 21:53:13

ab I think rar or Rose is the easiest .?

Anniebach Wed 17-May-17 22:09:30

I have just listened to a two hour debate from the six leaders of the six Welsh parties. So funny, one hour and fifty minutes, audience applauded , or didn't!, suddenly a heckler had a few words to the Tory, the heckler was Scots ,

Carwyn had several digs from fellow speakers sbout Corbyn, I was so proud of Carwyn, he remained silent on the C word, just spoke for Welsh Labour .

I decided today I wasn't going to vote, now if the labour candidate has Carwyn on his flier not Corbyn I will vote

rosesarered Wed 17-May-17 22:14:32

There's dedication for you! A two hour debate (on radio?)

rosesarered Wed 17-May-17 22:15:12

moon time for bed said Zebidee.

Anniebach Wed 17-May-17 22:57:03

Tv Roses, it did mean the ghastly Neil Hamilton speaking for UKIP but Leanne Wood leader of Plaid gave him gyp

nigglynellie Thu 18-May-17 06:21:29

annie, much as I disapprove of making personal comments I have to agree that N.Hamilton is truly ghastly. DH and I briefly met him and his equally ghastly wife at a wine and cheese party a few years ago and they were even worse in the flesh!! The conservatives were well rid of them!!

Anniebach Thu 18-May-17 08:41:02

Poor you Niggly, they realy seem a most unpleasant couple

nigglynellie Thu 18-May-17 11:24:01

Supercilious is a word that comes to mind when describing this unpleasant pair! Let's hope his/their departure from the political scene is asap!

Anniebach Thu 18-May-17 11:34:26

We are stuck with him for another four years Niggly

nigglynellie Thu 18-May-17 12:27:31

Four years!!! that's just dreadful! Poor Wales, you all have my sincere sympathy!!!!!! sad

TriciaF Thu 18-May-17 13:38:59

I watched the Andrew Neil politics show and he interviewed a rep. from the WRP - Worker's Revolutionary Party. I didn't know they still exist. 4 branches in London and one in Sheffield.
He said they still support the revolutionary overthrow of the capitalists, and support Corbyn's views - in the absence of any party nearer their Trotskyist principles.
A brave man.

Anniebach Thu 18-May-17 13:58:46

Why was he brave?

rosesarered Thu 18-May-17 14:57:49

I didn't know they still existed either TriciaF although it doesn't surprise me that they support his Trotskyist views.So many try and deny that Corbyn Is so far left wing, and McDonnell too, but here are the WRP supporting his aims.Says it all really!

durhamjen Thu 18-May-17 15:23:41

What about Ukip supporting May?
Says it all, really!

Anniebach Thu 18-May-17 15:36:05

What it says to me is we need a centre left party , if only we could have one , i dislike extremes . Centre left certaintly worked when Blair and Brown were in politics

Anniebach Thu 18-May-17 15:38:07

And the communist party is supporting Corbyn, he has a new advisor, a union chap who was a long time member of the communist party

TriciaF Thu 18-May-17 15:52:10

"Why was he brave?"
I meant, to agree to speak on TV with Andrew Neil. But thinking about it, it was probably a cunning plan by the BBC to undermine Corbyn even more .

angelab Thu 18-May-17 16:24:56

ab I think 'centre' rather than 'centre left' would be better to describe Blair/Brown LP. I would have thought LD might be centre left?

Anniebach Thu 18-May-17 16:36:36

Then if he fell for a cunning plan Tricia he wasn't brave but stupid?

Anniebach Thu 18-May-17 16:41:12

Angelab, I do think centre left , Blair centre possibly but Brown definitely to the left, a good pairing and the cabinet was definitely a mix of both centre and left, balance and it worked, far left has never worked , voters don't like extremes

MaizieD Thu 18-May-17 19:50:56

They seem to like May, though. Is she not extreme?