Are the UK electorate out of touch with reality?

It could be excellent news that Labour lose, it will show that Corbyn cannot continue as Leader.

UKIP are only putting up candidates in half the seats, encouraging their supporters to vote Tory -after all the Tories are promising everything they ever wanted, from hard brexit to fox hunting and grammaf schools.

Under our crazy FPTP system the Tory/ UKIP vote could still be well below 50% and yet they could end up with a landslide. Tactical voting for the best placed non-Tory candidate seems to be the best defence.

rosesarered, he will not stand down, his goal is to turn the Labour Party into his dream of a trots party, he has wanted this for many a year. Why are good MP's who are centre left on his hit list

I think it bizarre that we expect politicians to 'believe' in things befre they can deliver them. TM was I think a Remain person but when the vote was in, she took on the PM role and is busy trying to deliver what the public voted for. It would be healthier I am sure, if we chose people who could act upon the brief we give them rather than trying to get people who are belivers themselves.

I remember years a go a very successful clergyman told me he wasn't required to belive in any of it, just to provide the services and pastoral comfort that his flock wanted.

We expect other professionas to get on and do the job they are tasked with, barristers don't have to believe in their client, nurses dont have to accept that patients did all they could to keep well, they sign up for the work and they get on with it.

If we chose people for their qualities as planners, orators, administrators, negotiators etc and then told them what we wanted we might do better. We are verging upon residential or cult followers at the moment which I find disconcerting.

People seem to think that JC stands for Jesus Christ, including the man himself, we are not Americans!!!!!

What happened to the Revolution, radicalnan?

I remember years a go a very successful clergyman told me he wasn't required to belive in any of it, just to provide the services and pastoral comfort that his flock wanted.

That is just horrible. I'm sure that most of the christians on here would be

Well said radicalnan ! Agree completely.

Some clergy lose their faith, some don't believe in the miracles in the bible and the virgin birth but think that Jesus set the example we should all be following, it's not 'horrible' at all Maizie and I doubt that any Christians would be shocked by this
'Revelation'.

If I were still a practising christian, roses I would be devastated to find that my parish priest was preaching what he didn't believe.

You wouldn't know, as he or she is not likely to tell one of their own congregation.
It happens though, and I should think most Christians are aware of it.

So that priest was ordained knowing he was lying through his teeth , how did he lie through the theological college . I trust you told the congregation? To think he baptised babies, married couples, buried the dead and comforted the bereaved

So, Annie, are you, a Christian, 'aware' of this sort of thing happening, and comfortable with it, as roses confidently asserts Christians are?

No I am not comfortable with it. I know a small number who left the priesthood after struggling with doubts. What horrifies me about the priest mentioned is not only he lying to people who place their trust in him but he is refusing to take responsibility and claiming it is fine to lie and betray people because someone has told him it's ok to do so.

There is something fishy about this, no struggling with loss of faith .

But I find hypocrisy, lies and betrayal of trust so difficult to understand

Don't put words in my mouth please Maizie I didn't say anyone was 'comfortable' with it.
These priests and vicars that feel like this didn't go through theological college thinking this, it creeps up on them slowly throughout life.I once knew a Catholic priest that felt like this and you read of others from time to time.There was a Bishop some years ago that was castigated for admitting that fact.
Think Grantchester! Yes, it's tv fiction but the feelings the clergy struggle with are very real.It's not horrible, it's human.

What I meant to say was that it's horrible for 'the clergyman concerned'.

I'm afraid, Maizie, that there are still some in this country who see joining a church or a political party as just joining the 'right' club. Hypocrisy isn't a problem as long as you fit your view of society.

I agree ab though, that these clergy should really find another occupation.
The priest that I knew was around 45 came from Ireland and would never have found another job, his family in Ireland would feel shamed.He carried on doing his best for the congregation and was very liked.He told me that in Ireland one son in almost every family was pushed into the priesthood as it was an honour to be accepted.This was in England ( his church) and am guessing he wasn't the only one to feel like that.
Another man we knew was the local vicar at our village church in Cornwall.He was married ( not happily) had a drink problem and a faith problem.
We have to remember that they are human and prone to all human failings.

I don't think for one minute that any clergy actually join a church for hypocritical reasons.

Roses, I missed your earlier post , I read Maizies claim on the priest.

I know a small number who left the priesthood but their suffering was difficult to hear of. I know priests who doubt the virgin birth , why not have doubts , why not question, I assumed this was a priest who didn't have any faith and had no problem with it.

Even the Catholic Irish priest thought that he had a genuine calling, in spite of being pushed in that direction.

I did say it was fishy, some priests and nuns I know struggled not to answer their calling , but then sccepted it.

This thread has gone way off topic ......

Threads often do

Isn't it good manners to try and pull it back and go off and start a new thread if it's so riveting?

Is I about Bexit? I think to lots it is.
Should it be? Yes partly.
We are leaving the single market and people will vote for who they think will get us the most.
However, we will be left with this particularly elected long after and without the protections of the EU.
Good bye triple lock, hello privatised NHS, not sure there will be anyone sane left to work in it anyway.
Heaven help you if you are sick, disabled, young or not independently wealthy.
Am I a Leftie, nope not really but for anyone who lived through a Thatcher Govt it is like history repeating itself but without the single market.

Sorry GG, not for me to explain to you what is or isn't good manners, but I do think you to accuse Maizie of not being good mannered was untrue and unkind.

Heaven help you if you are sick, disabled, young or not independently wealthy.

A good summary Daisy. It is all becoming really, really frightening if you are any of the above. I also cannot believe how many think it is OK to treat others in this way as long as they believe (probably inaccurately) that they will be OK. We live in very sad times.