Group responsibility?

No problem. It's worth repeating anyway.

On the day after the attack, I wrote about my daughter's friend, who is a Muslim and junior doctor in Manchester Royal Infirmary's A & E. She worked for 18 hours and left work, totally traumatised. I expect there were others.

I hate to think how a young potential jihadist would have reacted to that kind of abuse. Recruiters use the attitude of "Westerners" as one of their methods of persuading young, alienated men (and they are mainly men) to join a group which will look after them.

Sorry Daphne, crossed post!

I wonder if trauma surgeon Navid Yasin who had spent 48 hours operating on the bomb casualties and was called a "terrorist" by a van driver, as he drove back in to work, felt he had a "collective responsibility" to condemn the action of others who may share his faith.

My daughter's boyfriend's father worships at Didsbury mosque. I hadn't heard it was "extreme".

Meanwhile, here's an article from the Sunday Times about an orthopaedic surgeon of Pakistani origin, who was born in Manchester. He was abused in his car on the way to work to continue treating the patients he'd treated from the Manchester bombing.

I hope the picture is big enough to read it. The full article is here,but it's behind a paywall: www.thetimes.co.uk/article/hero-surgeon-abused-after-48-hours-of-savinglives-5wnx0jtv8

I did say 'metaphorically'. Again continuing the catholic/muslim comparison. For na short period we had a a priest who supported the IRA. I went to church elsewhere. There were catholics who supported the IRA, but no-one saw us as having a collective responsibility for the behaviour of a small minority.

I watched a recorded QT from Salford in which the programme was dedicated to last week's atrocity. There were several points thrown up by audience members. One man had been to, I think Didsbury Mosque on an open day and was handed a contetious piece of literature, can't remember the actual words but it was decrying the western way of life and values. A Muslim lady, responded that this was not an official piece of literature, quite possibly so, but it was being handed out in a place of worship. Later on in the programme another Muslim woman stated that in SOME mosques, anti western rhetoric was definitely a problem. She perceived these estbalishments to be Whahabist, financed by Saudi Arabia. I also remember a Channel 4 Dispatches programme a while back, shot under cover, where some preachers were advocating violence towards Jews, Christians and homosexuals. I would like to state that from news coverage the overwhelming feeling I got in the aftermath of the atrocity it's clear that the Muslim population were as appalled and horrified as the rest of us. There is nevertheless an underlying worry that a small percentage have malign intentions and these aspirations are sometimes fostered in places of worship and schools who should not be shaping young minds in such a harmful way.

The Catholics I knew (family, friends and their families, school) did speak out against IRA terrorist crimes, m0nica. Even the ones, like my dad, who sympathised with the IRA's political goal of reuniting all of Ireland, condemned their methods of trying to achieve it.

M0nica - see above - those are the reasons why, including the answer to the ludicrous idea that people are being asked to "rent their clothes" etc.

As a catholic and half Irish, I wonder why people keep demanding that muslims in this country go to great lengths to distance themselves from those who commit terrible crimes and publicly rent their clothes and scatter themselves with ashes (metaphorically) when I can never remember this being demanded of catholics in this country during the IRA bombing campaigns.

Well argued, lucky. Annie, I think that it's good that some Muslims speak out as the man and the young woman mentioned in this thread did if only to counter the so many non-Muslims who keep saying the jihadist terrorism the world is seeing has nothing to do with Islam. Essentially all that's happening is that many people with little knowledge of the Quran and Islamic history are making statements that, according to the Muslims who do speak out, are simply wrong.

And then there are the actual jihadists themselves. They keep telling us they are acting for Allah. Isn't it rather arrogant of us to tell them they aren't? We cannot claim to know for sure how another person's interpretations of scriptures influence them.

To turn this around annie - are you saying that decent Muslim folk who feel angry and upset about what is happening should not speak out? Or those who see corruption happening in their midst should just let it be and say nothing?

I want everyone to talk about the "elephant in the room" as that brave young Muslim woman said. "We" know "know the majority are as distressed as those of all faiths and no faith" - but who are "we"? The breaking down and polarising of communities is evidence that there are many who do not know.

The "elephant" is that some mosques are fostering a fundamentalist view of Islam - we are too frightened to say this, as the police in Rotherham were too frightened to tell it like it was.

The issues need to be confronted and I am full of admiration for those in the Muslim community who are brave enough to talk about it. They need our admiration and support.

Sackcloth and ashes do not come into it - those speaking out have nothing to apologise for - they are saying what needs to be said. You are confusing blame with a recognition that there are things that need to be in the open and thankfully those with the courage to say them - why would they be to blame for anything?

Luckygirl, you want those of Muslim Faith to march, condemn, weep etc, I do not. We will not agree on this. Surely we know the majority are as distressed as those of all faiths and no faith, yet you seem to want thrm in sack cloth and ashes , sorry but this is my opinion.

Oh annie - why would anyone be "joyful" that these folk are so distressed at the actions of their co-religionists that they feel the need to stand up and apologies for them? Where did you get the word joyful from? No-one is joyful.
It is good that they have had the courage to do this and I admire and applaud them and believe that their actions are both brave and necessary. It does not make me, or them or anyone else joyful" - why would it? - would that the world were a better place and this did not need to happen.

You cannot put words into people's mouths or sentiments into their hearts that they do not have - that is no basis for a disagreement of views.

I am happy to have an exchange of views with you annie, but cannot accept this sort of distortion.

"There are many Islams in this world. This death cult is one of them."

“To dismiss them as psychopaths is to ignore what is most truly terrifying about them — that their thuggery and greed coexist with a profound strain of religiosity. [Isis] propagandists present it as charged by God with restoring to the world the pristine Islam that existed back in the days of Muhammad and his immediate successors.”

Very interesting article bags, and flies in the face of Kenan Malik's which emphasises the personal and individual nature of terrorists based on their psychology. Who knows where the truth lies?

bags re Saudi mosques financed mosques being shut down. I wouldn't hold your breath on that one.

I find it distressing to hear anyone feeling they have to apologise for the actions of others. We know there are so many of the Muslim Faith who are good people yet we are joyful to see them cry, apologise etc when they have done no wrong.

Bags - I too saw this same lady - what a brave woman! And also a man from Gloucester who traveled to Manchester with his wife to say not in my name - the poor man was in tears, but so moving in his speech.

I applaud both from the bottom of my heart - it takes courage to speak out as they have done in these dangerous times. Their words broadcast on the media will do more than any government led scheme for inter-community understanding. I hope that they realise how admired they are.

I agree Anya
Good point norose

Penstemmon. I think we all tend to use phrases like The Jews, The Muslims,The Christians. etc if we were to replace the word 'The 'with the word 'Some ' it would automatically take away the assumption that all Muslim,Jews. Christian's etc are or behave the same.

Nobody forces Muslims to speak out saying 'Not in our name' or 'you ain't no Muslim bro' - it is an instinctive reaction from those who see these actions being carried out in their name.

To compare with Ireland during The Troubles - well it might have been better had people spoken out but many were too afraid and communities were very much part of the problem themseives with their various 'loyalties'.

Rather that agree with the OP I applaud the voices of Islam that speak out.

I've just watched a BBC clip of a young Muslim woman arguing that, for the time being, all Saudi-financed mosques should be shut down. Brave woman accepting that there are problems within Islam that are dangerous to the world. If that isn't taking responsibility I don't know what is.

Here is an article saying that the jihadist mentality is part of Islam Many Islams exist—this death cult is one of them. Interesting to read after Kenan Malik's.

As usual I see both points of view and that Truth can be very muddy and unclear. Perhaps there is no absolute truth on complex issues.

I thought you were comparing them as having the same influence POGS

Anniebach

Of course he has!