Is it too late for a U turn on Brexit or at least watering it down?

Word has it that any civil servant who tries to explain the reality to Maybot over Brexit is immediately frozen out. What a way to approach the most difficult important negotiations of our lifetime.

Now I understand the wall and head feeling Maisie. Thanks for explaining.

It is really worrying that recently May, who had intended that this election should be about Brexit, when under fire from those wishing to seek more clarification about her Brexit stance - simply cut and ran back to her car. She hasn't for one single second addressed the issues except the usual Manta and cliches.

She must be very old, Jess, to have 7 great grandchildren all old enough to vote!

Oh, sorry, GG. There was nothing wrong with your post at all. It just renewed for me all the frustration I've felt over the past 11 months about the Leave vote. That we're heading for economic disaster on the basis of lies etc. And that the person leading the move to disaster is the incompetent who fuelled the lies about immigration by not applying the EU 'rules' when she could well have done so.
But, this has been gone over many times on here so I won't start again

Also, encourage your grandchildren to vote if they are old enough. I've been campaigning for Labour and my favourite doorstep conversation was with woman who said she was going to consult her 3 grandchildren and 7 great grandchildren about how they were voting and do likewise.

There is only one way to head off an utterly disastrous hard Brexit. That is to vote Labour in constituencies where Labour is the main opposition. And Libdem in the others. And persuade people you know to do likewise. The message that May is strong and will bring about the Brexit that people voted for is wobbling on it's plinth. He campaign has been a combination of personal aggrandisement (It's Theresa May's team, not the Conservative Party at the moment), U turns, and hiding from the public. Peppered with increasingly desperate assertions that Brexit means a bright new future.
If this election is, as she wanted it to be, about Brexit, let's vote for one that keeps us in the single market, with a sensible agreement on the movement of Labour (and retired people) in both directions, and minimises the disruption to peace on the island of Ireland.

I'm not sure such intemperate behaviour would do you much good Maizie, but if you think it is worth a try who am I to stop you.

I started to reply but I really don't understand what your problem is with my post so better to read it when I have time tomorrow - but I am not ignoring it.

Had there been a will the Conservative government could have done many things to 'control' freedom of movement.

It's statements like this that make me want to go and bang my head against a brick wall,*GG*!

Who was in charge of immigration control for 6 years? Who could have ensured that the EU 'rules' were properly enforced? Who's only contributions to controlling immigration in those 6 years seem to have been sending a bl**dy bus around the streets telling immigrants to 'go home' and illegally deporting a great many students?

So we have a Leave the EU vote, driven for many voters by the issue of apparently unregulated immigration from the EU, and the person whose incompetence at the Home Office led to the non-application of the 'rules' is now in charge of the whole country and promising in her manifesto to do what she couldn't do when she was in charge of immigration. (As well as admitting that it can't really be done at all very quickly)

Just when I was getting resigned to having to learn about Care of Unicorns, and Having and Eating my Cake I am reminded that we've always had potential control over EU immigrants, so I get mad all over again..

I haven't responded properly.
I'll carry on being downright ignorant, and you can ignore my posts, as I'll ignore yours.

DJ

You just have!

As for saving things up for days I consider that nothing short of pathetic and to be honest downright ignorant.

Not all of us can post daily , even you.

Sorry, POGS, but I can't be bothered. Why don't you have normal debate like everyone else?
Why do you have to save things up for days?
A lot more has happened since then, so I really don't care to respond days later.

Whatever she said POGS it is not what happens. Germany itself limits professional coming into the country.

Had there been a will the Conservative government could have done many things to 'control' freedom of movement. That they didn't is not because they couldn't but because they knew having the level of immigration we had was adding money to the exchequer and they are basically lazy. It is easier to blame the EU than do something about it.

Just because Junker and Tusk say these things does not make it true. The negotiations will give us the truth and heaven help us if May goes in all guns blazing as she has tried so far. I imagine they are laughing at her at the moment as she rolls over, and the then rolls over again. We have seen she likes to impose and she will not be able to do that with 27 countries in the EU and she is obviously not to be trusted with any negotiation.

durhamjen Fri 02-Jun-17 10:26:50

They are not FACTS, POGS. They are what May says are facts which are not the same as real facts.

How come you missed this out?
-

I haven't a clue what you mean by 'They are not facts'. 'They are what May says are facts'.

I have not mentioned Theresa May I and the ' facts ' are clear. 'No Cherry Picking', 'Free Movement of, goods , services, capital and Labour'.

It is nothing to do with May/Starmer it is all to do with the stance , thus far, of the EU Commission who have persistently stated the 4 Pillars / 4 Freedoms enshrined in the Treaty of Rome, The Single European Act, The Maastricht Treaty and the Lisbon Treaty are none negotiable.

uk.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-germany-idUKKCN0ZE0SC

" Chancellor Angela Merkel told Britain on Tuesday it will not be able to cherry-pick the parts of the European Union it wants, such as the single market, without accepting principles like free movement when it negotiates its exit from the bloc."

" Whoever wants to leave this family can't expect to do away with all of its responsibilities while keeping the privileges," added Merkel, striking a tougher note than in the last few days.

Countries that want access to the single market must accept the principles and obligations that go with them, she said.

"That applies to Great Britain as well as everyone else," she said, adding that Norway was not an EU member but had free access to the single market "because in return it accepts free migration from the European Union among other things".

The same thing has been persistently stated by the likes of Junker and Donald Tusk.

I have said if the commerce trumped the politics in negotiations then fine but it is totally misrepresenting the facts as they stand to date by giving the impression the EU Commission / Parliament will ease up on their stance that the 4 Pillars / 4 Freedoms are thus far remotely negotiable.

We all need to do our utmost to avert the brexit disaster. The best we can hope for at this stage is a hung parliament where the TM parliament cannot drive the United Kingdom off the edge of a cliff and into oblivion.

www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jun/04/hung-parliament-can-halt-brexit-disaster

Yes, not so strong and stable now, is she, or bloody difficult. At least they don't have to talk to her; she'll be hiding from them, anyway.

Brussels must have noted with some glee how quickly May u-turned and buckled under pressure during the past few weeks.

Daphne, don't understand. You'll have to explain.

And people wonder why some young people think the elderly are selfish and grumpy old gits!

Scaremongering again, GracesGran.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/03/brexit-universities-academics-eu-rights

Crumbs.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/03/brexit-universities-academics-eu-rights

Sorry, this was scaremongering, wasn't it?

Oh, I thought Labour was going to win, according to you...

I wonder how soon after the election May to will admit that the WTO cannot exist as a fall back arrangement and that a no deal will leave the UK totally in the wilderness.

POGS, just because Mrs May says something is not so does not mean she is telling the truth. She has been managing expectations in exactly the way organisations do. So she does not disabuse the idea that being in the single market would not allow us to have free movement. Then, when she manages to 'pull of a deal' ta da ... she will no doubt be telling us just how strong she is.

The first truth is that 44% of those counted as immigrants are foreign students, the majority of whom return home straight away on completion of their course. They enable our Universities to survive (although some will have to look at closing if the numbers go down) and they keep the cost of our children and grand children's education down. So the figures you see waved about in the red top press could be almost halved if she takes them out and this has been discussed but so far she has said 'no'.

I repeat as it stands the EU Commission and Parliament position is clear. No Cherry Picking and the Free Movement of People is enshrined and will be adhered to.

The truth, yet again, is a little different. Many countries within the EU, while subscribing to free movement are quite pragmatic in how they deal with it. Germany, for instance, controls the free movement of professionals by insisting on German qualifications. We could have looked at what other countries do and done the same ourselves but that would not have suited the right-wing Conservatives who were busy destroying the lives of others and wanted blame to lie at someone else's door.

Outside the EU,Switzerland, which is part of the European Economic Area, have signed up to a single market type of agreement where you have to actually have a job before you go to Switzerland and they advertise jobs first in their country.

It was and will no doubt be possible to manage our immigration while being part of the Single Market. I for one will not cheer if the Tories pull this off having put us through hell on the way just to preserve the stories and lies they want us to believe.