We oldies need to admit we got it wrong about leaving the eu, we are putting our young family members future at risk. Unity is now priority
The deep concerns by commerce, industry & farmers on our economy and hard times ahead should not be lightly dismissed.
The horrors of this week have highlighted the need for much closer unity with our neighbours in Europe. We cannot gamble on a hard Brexit to resolve differences, we need to stop and rethink how we can resolve our differences without the extremism of Brexit. Is it too late or can we save ourselves from a possible disaster? To do otherwise could be taking a gamble we just cannot afford to take on our young families future.
I am not prepared to leave it to Teresa May and trust her hard Brexit colleagues. Therefore I shall not vote for her type of Brexit.
By the way, I hope people noticed David Davis saying on QT last night that there was no promise to get net migration down to under a hundred thousand by the end of the next parliament. It was a wish, that's all.
So that means that although they promised it seven years ago, it could take them longer than 12 years to reach that target.
Brexiteers take note.
And if they did, it would be really bad for our economy. We need workers from abroad to fill all the jobs there aren't people here to take. The only type of immigration we don't want is when the gangmasters recruit loads of East Europeans, bring them here and pay them peanuts.
Those who work on the same terms as everyone else are essential.
It would be stupid to think we can get immigration down quickly, in any case until more British workers have the right training opportunities we need immigration.
It may take ten years or twelve years or more.
What rubbish, roses.
We will always need immigration.
Even your esteemed leaderene will not put a date on it, because she knows it's a lie.
roses
"The Conservatives have denied there is any confusion in their immigration policy after Theresa May signalled she wanted to cut numbers to less than 100,000 a year by 2022.
The target, which is in the party's manifesto but without a timeframe, has not been met since it was set in 2009.
Brexit Secretary David Davis said the Tories would "aim" to hit the target in five years - but could not promise."
It may take ten years or twelve years or more? seems the conservative party is suggesting otherwise..
POGS, just because Mrs May says something is not so does not mean she is telling the truth. She has been managing expectations in exactly the way organisations do. So she does not disabuse the idea that being in the single market would not allow us to have free movement. Then, when she manages to 'pull of a deal' ta da ... she will no doubt be telling us just how strong she is.
The first truth is that 44% of those counted as immigrants are foreign students, the majority of whom return home straight away on completion of their course. They enable our Universities to survive (although some will have to look at closing if the numbers go down) and they keep the cost of our children and grand children's education down. So the figures you see waved about in the red top press could be almost halved if she takes them out and this has been discussed but so far she has said 'no'.
I repeat as it stands the EU Commission and Parliament position is clear. No Cherry Picking and the Free Movement of People is enshrined and will be adhered to.
The truth, yet again, is a little different. Many countries within the EU, while subscribing to free movement are quite pragmatic in how they deal with it. Germany, for instance, controls the free movement of professionals by insisting on German qualifications. We could have looked at what other countries do and done the same ourselves but that would not have suited the right-wing Conservatives who were busy destroying the lives of others and wanted blame to lie at someone else's door.
Outside the EU,Switzerland, which is part of the European Economic Area, have signed up to a single market type of agreement where you have to actually have a job before you go to Switzerland and they advertise jobs first in their country.
It was and will no doubt be possible to manage our immigration while being part of the Single Market. I for one will not cheer if the Tories pull this off having put us through hell on the way just to preserve the stories and lies they want us to believe.
I wonder how soon after the election May to will admit that the WTO cannot exist as a fall back arrangement and that a no deal will leave the UK totally in the wilderness.
Oh, I thought Labour was going to win, according to you...
www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/03/brexit-universities-academics-eu-rights
Sorry, this was scaremongering, wasn't it?
Scaremongering again, GracesGran.
And people wonder why some young people think the elderly are selfish and grumpy old gits! 
Daphne, don't understand. You'll have to explain.
Brussels must have noted with some glee how quickly May u-turned and buckled under pressure during the past few weeks.
Yes, not so strong and stable now, is she, or bloody difficult. At least they don't have to talk to her; she'll be hiding from them, anyway.
We all need to do our utmost to avert the brexit disaster. The best we can hope for at this stage is a hung parliament where the TM parliament cannot drive the United Kingdom off the edge of a cliff and into oblivion.
www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jun/04/hung-parliament-can-halt-brexit-disaster
durhamjen Fri 02-Jun-17 10:26:50
They are not FACTS, POGS. They are what May says are facts which are not the same as real facts.
How come you missed this out?-
I haven't a clue what you mean by 'They are not facts'. 'They are what May says are facts'.
I have not mentioned Theresa May I and the ' facts ' are clear. 'No Cherry Picking', 'Free Movement of, goods , services, capital and Labour'.
It is nothing to do with May/Starmer it is all to do with the stance , thus far, of the EU Commission who have persistently stated the 4 Pillars / 4 Freedoms enshrined in the Treaty of Rome, The Single European Act, The Maastricht Treaty and the Lisbon Treaty are none negotiable.
uk.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-germany-idUKKCN0ZE0SC
" Chancellor Angela Merkel told Britain on Tuesday it will not be able to cherry-pick the parts of the European Union it wants, such as the single market, without accepting principles like free movement when it negotiates its exit from the bloc."
" Whoever wants to leave this family can't expect to do away with all of its responsibilities while keeping the privileges," added Merkel, striking a tougher note than in the last few days.
Countries that want access to the single market must accept the principles and obligations that go with them, she said.
"That applies to Great Britain as well as everyone else," she said, adding that Norway was not an EU member but had free access to the single market "because in return it accepts free migration from the European Union among other things".
The same thing has been persistently stated by the likes of Junker and Donald Tusk.
I have said if the commerce trumped the politics in negotiations then fine but it is totally misrepresenting the facts as they stand to date by giving the impression the EU Commission / Parliament will ease up on their stance that the 4 Pillars / 4 Freedoms are thus far remotely negotiable.
Whatever she said POGS it is not what happens. Germany itself limits professional coming into the country.
Had there been a will the Conservative government could have done many things to 'control' freedom of movement. That they didn't is not because they couldn't but because they knew having the level of immigration we had was adding money to the exchequer and they are basically lazy. It is easier to blame the EU than do something about it.
Just because Junker and Tusk say these things does not make it true. The negotiations will give us the truth and heaven help us if May goes in all guns blazing as she has tried so far. I imagine they are laughing at her at the moment as she rolls over, and the then rolls over again. We have seen she likes to impose and she will not be able to do that with 27 countries in the EU and she is obviously not to be trusted with any negotiation.
Sorry, POGS, but I can't be bothered. Why don't you have normal debate like everyone else?
Why do you have to save things up for days?
A lot more has happened since then, so I really don't care to respond days later.
DJ
You just have!
As for saving things up for days I consider that nothing short of pathetic and to be honest downright ignorant.
Not all of us can post daily , even you.
I haven't responded properly.
I'll carry on being downright ignorant, and you can ignore my posts, as I'll ignore yours.
Had there been a will the Conservative government could have done many things to 'control' freedom of movement.
It's statements like this that make me want to go and bang my head against a brick wall,*GG*!
Who was in charge of immigration control for 6 years? Who could have ensured that the EU 'rules' were properly enforced? Who's only contributions to controlling immigration in those 6 years seem to have been sending a bl**dy bus around the streets telling immigrants to 'go home' and illegally deporting a great many students?
So we have a Leave the EU vote, driven for many voters by the issue of apparently unregulated immigration from the EU, and the person whose incompetence at the Home Office led to the non-application of the 'rules' is now in charge of the whole country and promising in her manifesto to do what she couldn't do when she was in charge of immigration. (As well as admitting that it can't really be done at all very quickly)
Just when I was getting resigned to having to learn about Care of Unicorns, and Having and Eating my Cake I am reminded that we've always had potential control over EU immigrants, so I get mad all over again..
I'm not sure such intemperate behaviour would do you much good Maizie, but if you think it is worth a try who am I to stop you.
I started to reply but I really don't understand what your problem is with my post so better to read it when I have time tomorrow - but I am not ignoring it.
There is only one way to head off an utterly disastrous hard Brexit. That is to vote Labour in constituencies where Labour is the main opposition. And Libdem in the others. And persuade people you know to do likewise. The message that May is strong and will bring about the Brexit that people voted for is wobbling on it's plinth. He campaign has been a combination of personal aggrandisement (It's Theresa May's team, not the Conservative Party at the moment), U turns, and hiding from the public. Peppered with increasingly desperate assertions that Brexit means a bright new future.
If this election is, as she wanted it to be, about Brexit, let's vote for one that keeps us in the single market, with a sensible agreement on the movement of Labour (and retired people) in both directions, and minimises the disruption to peace on the island of Ireland.
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