London.....Incidents at London Bridge, Borough Market and Vauxhall.

Yes Bluebell, if my son committed a murder I would feel and be guilty by association and expect to be treated accordingly. I would feel that I had failed to raise a decent human being.

The law says the police can use reasonable force. This is what they did last night - brilliant split second decisions from highly train police. But they are not soldiers and we do not have a war on our streets. We have a few aberrant men who are choosing to attack our society and police who are dealing with them. I can think of nothing more likely to turn this into a war on our streets than a 'shoot to kill' policy.

NanaandGrampy "If people have done nothing wrong they have nothing to fear" should be true but apparently some think that simply by getting their names on a list they do have something to fear. It could be that by simply knowing a perpetrator your name gets on a list and then, if it gets published, you will have plenty to fear.

Juggernaut I would feel the same as everyone else if my grandchild were a victim of terrorists. The difference between you and me is that I wouldn't want to make innocent people suffer as a result. This sort of knee jerk reaction frightens me and makes me worried for the country's future when someone can think it is OK to vilify the innocent because they happened to be on a list without any proof that they had done wrong. I think 11 people so far have been arrested, so if their names are published what will happen? I expect most of them will be released without charge because they have done nothing wrong.

Of course the police must instantly arrest anyone who 'might' be involved and check them out but if there is no proof of their involvement they should be released without a stain on their character. People could be on such lists because a vindictive person has lied to the police or for many other innocent reasons.

Nonnie, whitewave, can only agree. The horror is that the police did exactly what they should in the circumstances that faced them last night. What more could they have done?

So Harrigran your son commits a murder and by your reasoning you should be hounded out the country no child is responsible for their parents actions and no parent of grown up children can be responsible ( or may even know) about their child's actions We know by many posts on here that there are many grown up children not behaving as we expected or wanted or even knownwhat they do

Nonnie I understand what you are saying and MaizieD and Rosesarered
You can't fight fire with fire that makes you equal, fire needs oxygen to keep it alight and that's exactly what you would be doing fanning the flames

These people are not acting in the name of religion although that is their brainwashed belief any more than the 30 years Ireland was having the 'religious' troubles

I agree nanaandGrampy shoot and kill them as soon as possible.

Sun 04-Jun-17 11:43:36 Merlot I can't see why you think he doesn't.

I am totally comfortable with the shoot to kill policy.

If the perpetrators were given more time they would just kill more people, take hostages etc. They are not going to stop without lethal action being taken. We aren't talking about rational people we're talking about fanatics.

It's true what they say - if you have done nothing wrong you have nothing to fear.

Well done to the police for a swift and decisive action.

How long did it take to lock up Anjem Choudary? 16 years
He first came to the notice of 'the powers that be' in 1999. How much damage did he do in those years? Untold.

I agree with nonnie and MaizieD on this.

Nonnie
Still no comment from you about how you'd feel if it was your grandchild who had been murdered???
I'm sure some of us here would be interested in your ideas to counter terrorism, as you're so quick to dismiss others views.
MaizieD ’It's as though our progress towards civilization is being completely wiped out’......I do hope you're not suggesting that the murdering bastards in Manchester and London are civilised?
I've reached the point where I believe it's time to fight fire with fire!
I'm leaving this thread now, and won't be back, the bleeding heart liberals are getting to be ridiculous!

X post Nonnie

I despair at such thinking too. It's as though our progress towards civilisation is being completely wiped out.

Surely it would be better for 'innocent people' to be wrongly suspected than to have more eight year old children murdered!

I'm not sure that you are understanding what nonnie said, juggernaut. Here it is again:

How awful would it be to release the names of people who are innocent and mistakenly on such a list? There would be vigilante attacks and innocent people would have their lives ruined.

I've no problem with innocent people being wrongly on a list (so long as they are able to get off it when the error is pointed out) but I, like nonnie, have a huge problem with the idea of such a list being leaked to the public and the innocent being possibly subjected to mob retribution.

Juggernaut I don't understand why you think that the lives of innocent people should be damaged because other people have been murdered? How can that be right?

I don't mind innocent people being suspected but publishing their names so that vigilantes can attack them surely cannot be right. I despair at the thinking behind such a suggestion. Surely it serves no purpose to attack other innocent people and ruin thier lives.

Nonnie
'innocent people would have their lives ruined'
Innocent people have had their lives taken from them!
Surely it would be better for 'innocent people' to be wrongly suspected than to have more eight year old children murdered!
What would your thoughts be if it was your grand daughter who had been slaughtered?
Please tell, I'd be very interested to know.

Yes Tegan2 I think that metal bollards or railings separating pedestrians from the road on bridges could easily be done, but then the vans or cars or lorries could mow people down on any other road.It really is a problem, as anybody can go berserk with a vehicle and knife.

I did wonder why there weren't bollards on places such as bridges [it crossed my mind after Westminster Bridge] to stop cars from driving off the road. These must surely be put in place, now. Having heard the news late last night I did [amazingly] manage to sleep last night but when I woke up had that awful feeling one gets when you think 'oh, that was a bad dream' and realise that the dream was reality. I feel a mixture of numb, sad, angry, confused today. We CAN'T 'live with this'. Something must change/happen. What that is, I don't know. My heart aches for the people affected by this latest atrocity.

They had that in America it was called lynch mobs

I've been away from Gransnet for some months and recently returned having decided to lurk until after the election but feel I must contribute as no one else is answering stansgran -
It may well be an outrageous suggestion quickly shouted down but if we find these murderers were on a watch list perhaps their names and addresses could have been on some sort of list available in every police station in the country. And perhaps some useful person like Julian Assange could leak the names and perhaps when these people pop off to Libya to refresh their murderous tendencies and polish up their killing skills we could have their passports cancelled . And then perhaps a woman wouldn't have to wake up in intensive care to hear her eight year old daughter had been blown to bits. Just saying.

Yes it is an outrageous suggestion. How often do we hear that police arrest people and then release them without charge? How awful would it be to release the names of people who are innocent and mistakenly on such a list? There would be vigilante attacks and innocent people would have their lives ruined. I think we are a civilised society where such things should never be allowed to happen.

I hope you wrote this in quick reaction to the news stansgran and have thought better of it upon reflection.

The fantastic response from the police last night ending in the deaths (shot) of the terrorists in something like eight minutes is reassuring. Corbyn must accept that people are now anxious about the level of protection we can expect.

Nothing to do with PC, harrigran, but suppose the killers were British born and their "extended family" are British citizens? Even if they are nationals of another state, do we suspend the rule of law and in effect act like the Crusaders we are portrayed as?

"I'm not happy with the shoot-to-kill policy in general - I think that is quite dangerous and I think can often can be counterproductive.
"I think you have to have security that prevents people firing off weapons where you can, there are various degrees for doing things as we know.
"But the idea you end up with a war on the streets is not a good thing."

There are times and places where shoot to kill is the right choice but I can't see that Corbyn says any different to that. His argument appears to be a counter argument to the "shoot them all" argument we hear, on some forums, in some gutter press and from some political party followers.

.harrigan, and if the extended families are british? Also it does not follow that families are responsible for the actions in one family member

I wonder if he has changed his mind now?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34832023