Democracy hahahaha

I really object to this idea that young people because they are now proving to have ideals and beliefs that there are better ways to run a society do so because they are inexperienced and don't know better. They have taken up an ideology which was built on the experiences and knowledge brought back by men and women who had seen two world wars. It was an ideology trashed by Thatcher and her successor Tony Blair, but it was responsible for the society people my age grew up in. That they have come full circle to once more embrace the idea that riches should be shared and not hoarded by a few, that public services should be properly funded and railways and utilities publicly owned and education be free, is almost miraculous. They were born and raised in an era of greed where there was 'no such thing as society' and personal financial gain was the highest aim. They have rejected that and believe there is a better way. Argue with them if you must but respect their choices. It is a choice others only came to after seeing death and destruction for themselves.

Thank you Gracesgran for the Ann Pettifor YouTube clip. It is really worth watching.

I was just repeating it Adele as it had been put on earlier but I agree it was very well put over. I think the idea that the Tories are the only ones who understand the economy has to be shown up for the, shall we say, distinct exaggeration that it is.

Often the truth is more complex than the misdirection and Ann Pettifor made it very easy to understand - I'm all for that.

Great explanation trisher. I am really surprised (and a bit shocked) that some people think they know better rather than we have a different perspective, just because they have lived longer.

Good post trish

The new MP for Bury has now repeated my previous post as 'The economy is about humanity, not just balancing the books!'

Agree, good post Trisher. Well said

I was brought up with that ideology trisher; however, any form of government has pros and cons and human nature also has to be taken into account too. The young do not remember the shambles of Labour in the 1970s and the Winter of Discontent, the IRA bombings etc and the desire for a better way which enabled Margaret Thatcher to sweep to victory.
Years of MT and the Tories led to people believing that they were just going too far and so in came a new and supposedly fairer way of government with Blair - but becoming 'filthy rich' was shown not to be just the ethos of the Tories after all.

Publicly owned utilities should be a fairer way of enabling everyone to receive the essentials which enable us to live; reasonably priced and well run public transport is another essential. However, all too often, people who work for these services can become complacent and a return to free enterprise and competition often gives them the impetus to improve the services and compete on price which is good for the consumer.
However, it all went much too far.
Services such should never have been privatised eg water and the railway system as it is seems to be a complete shambles and so comes the call for returning services to public ownership, in particular by those who do not remember the days of nationalised railways, British Gas etc.

Any government, any ideology, which remains in power for too long can be damaging for the country. Corbyn has managed to increase the vote back to where it was when Gordon Brown lost the election - perhaps next time he or his successor will win. They will be in government presumably until people realise that free enterprise is being stifled and will yet again vote for a change.
That's human nature.
But of course you know all that anyway

Alie I agree with you. The economy should always be about doing what we can, as a society, to try and make sure that everybody should be treated humanely. The starting point should be a consensus about what we want.

Next, we need to consider what is feasible. People like Ann Pettifor show that it's not good enough to shrug our shoulders and say "There's no magic money tree" or "We can't afford it".

I'm not claiming for one moment that we can afford for everybody to live in luxury, but we can afford for everybody to have decent schools and healthcare and for everybody to have a roof over their head and food on the table.

Those who start with balance sheets or are doing OK themselves seem to forget that.

This can't happen!!!!!!!
A professor of government just said that Brexit negotiations will have to depend on what the DUP want.

This is appalling

Just watched the Pettifor video . Really clear explanation of what a lot of us feel. Thanks o those who gave link.

Three cheers for free elections to hold our politicians to account, eh, Jalima.

Finding the one and only way to run a country is a bit like finding the meaning of life! There isn't one. We muddle along, making adjustments, until somebody goes too far. Arguably, that's why the UK (and its constituent countries) has one of the oldest and most consistent democracies in the world.

I'm not claiming for one moment that we can afford for everybody to live in luxury, but we can afford for everybody to have decent schools and healthcare and for everybody to have a roof over their head and food on the table.
In a supposedly rich country with a sound economy of course we can.

I don't, in fact, see anything wrong with being expected to pay for care, if needed, from the profits made by the increase in the value of property. After all, if these had been savings in a bank account or investments, we would be expected to use them to fund our care - if needed.
Personally I prefer the idea of a Swiss holiday.

Three cheers for free elections to hold our politicians to account, eh, Jalima.
ha ha!!
One advantage of democracy.

Except that another one in the near future will cost us another, what was it? £135 million.
Free in one sense but not another.

I was talking generally, not about another election in the near future (although I suspect there might be one).

I wasn't really taking about any specific, such as social care. What I do think has happened over the last few years is that holes have been made in the safety net, which most people thonk should be there on a range of issues.

There have been enough reports of people relying on foodbanks, homelessness, increasing waiting times in hospitals, cuts in school funding, etc etc.

However, the reaction sometimes is not to believe the stories, blame people for their own predicament or, as a last resort, admit that it's terrible but there's no money to do anything about it. The increase in support for Corbyn's Labour Party is because people believe that they're being listened to and something will be done.

Jalima I think you are right about the swings backwards and forwards in government with each swing moderating the others views and then moving towards their own extreme. This is surely an argument for PR.

Nationally we have always smiled benignly or even laughed at the couple of weeks it can sometimes take our neighbours to form a government from a PR system but what tend to happen is that there is a consensus on many issues and the governments tend not to swing to extreme but moderate each government a little.

It is not about brains per se as the share of brain power is much the same today as it was in our youth. What I believe all of us can remember is the mistakes we made in our youth and the embarrassment when thinking about them today.

Did we have the knowledge we needed? We certainly did not have the experience that a lifetime has brought us. Within that experience comes the ability to compare not just then and now but all the changes we have been through and what a mess our politicians have made of so much of their interventions.

I also think it ensures a high level of social democratic politics

He cometh by bicycle with a helmet on his head

Fabulous piece in the new yorker.

The "young" have had enough of oldies telling them that only experience matters. They have lives too and have a right to have some control over them. Of course, mistakes will be made and they'll modify their views, but denying them a voice is undermining democracy. They're the ones who will shape the future and will have to live with it.

Very funny LSP
We have to find a laugh somewhere

HIGNFY was funny last night too, if you missed it then I think you can catch it on Monday night.

Within that experience comes the ability to compare not just then and now but all the changes we have been through and what a mess our politicians have made of so much of their interventions.

I am sorry Cardiff but I just don't agree with your wonderful view of getting older. You could just as easily say all the young are open-minded because they are young. This is really not an us and them situation. The old can become entrenched or grow in knowledge. The young can also be open-minded or just follow the crowd be it their family or their peers.

Thank you for the link LSP. It was so, so funny and very clever and is now doing the rounds on my FB page.

HIGNFY Election Special was funny last night, wasn't it Jalima? About both/all parties!