Democracy hahahaha

I wasn't really taking about any specific, such as social care. What I do think has happened over the last few years is that holes have been made in the safety net, which most people thonk should be there on a range of issues.

There have been enough reports of people relying on foodbanks, homelessness, increasing waiting times in hospitals, cuts in school funding, etc etc.

However, the reaction sometimes is not to believe the stories, blame people for their own predicament or, as a last resort, admit that it's terrible but there's no money to do anything about it. The increase in support for Corbyn's Labour Party is because people believe that they're being listened to and something will be done.

I was talking generally, not about another election in the near future (although I suspect there might be one).

Three cheers for free elections to hold our politicians to account, eh, Jalima.
ha ha!!
One advantage of democracy.

Except that another one in the near future will cost us another, what was it? £135 million.
Free in one sense but not another.

I'm not claiming for one moment that we can afford for everybody to live in luxury, but we can afford for everybody to have decent schools and healthcare and for everybody to have a roof over their head and food on the table.
In a supposedly rich country with a sound economy of course we can.

I don't, in fact, see anything wrong with being expected to pay for care, if needed, from the profits made by the increase in the value of property. After all, if these had been savings in a bank account or investments, we would be expected to use them to fund our care - if needed.
Personally I prefer the idea of a Swiss holiday.

Three cheers for free elections to hold our politicians to account, eh, Jalima.

Finding the one and only way to run a country is a bit like finding the meaning of life! There isn't one. We muddle along, making adjustments, until somebody goes too far. Arguably, that's why the UK (and its constituent countries) has one of the oldest and most consistent democracies in the world.

Just watched the Pettifor video . Really clear explanation of what a lot of us feel. Thanks o those who gave link.

This can't happen!!!!!!!
A professor of government just said that Brexit negotiations will have to depend on what the DUP want.

This is appalling

Alie I agree with you. The economy should always be about doing what we can, as a society, to try and make sure that everybody should be treated humanely. The starting point should be a consensus about what we want.

Next, we need to consider what is feasible. People like Ann Pettifor show that it's not good enough to shrug our shoulders and say "There's no magic money tree" or "We can't afford it".

I'm not claiming for one moment that we can afford for everybody to live in luxury, but we can afford for everybody to have decent schools and healthcare and for everybody to have a roof over their head and food on the table.

Those who start with balance sheets or are doing OK themselves seem to forget that.

I was brought up with that ideology trisher; however, any form of government has pros and cons and human nature also has to be taken into account too. The young do not remember the shambles of Labour in the 1970s and the Winter of Discontent, the IRA bombings etc and the desire for a better way which enabled Margaret Thatcher to sweep to victory.
Years of MT and the Tories led to people believing that they were just going too far and so in came a new and supposedly fairer way of government with Blair - but becoming 'filthy rich' was shown not to be just the ethos of the Tories after all.

Publicly owned utilities should be a fairer way of enabling everyone to receive the essentials which enable us to live; reasonably priced and well run public transport is another essential. However, all too often, people who work for these services can become complacent and a return to free enterprise and competition often gives them the impetus to improve the services and compete on price which is good for the consumer.
However, it all went much too far.
Services such should never have been privatised eg water and the railway system as it is seems to be a complete shambles and so comes the call for returning services to public ownership, in particular by those who do not remember the days of nationalised railways, British Gas etc.

Any government, any ideology, which remains in power for too long can be damaging for the country. Corbyn has managed to increase the vote back to where it was when Gordon Brown lost the election - perhaps next time he or his successor will win. They will be in government presumably until people realise that free enterprise is being stifled and will yet again vote for a change.
That's human nature.
But of course you know all that anyway

Agree, good post Trisher. Well said

The new MP for Bury has now repeated my previous post as 'The economy is about humanity, not just balancing the books!'

Good post trish

Great explanation trisher. I am really surprised (and a bit shocked) that some people think they know better rather than we have a different perspective, just because they have lived longer.

I was just repeating it Adele as it had been put on earlier but I agree it was very well put over. I think the idea that the Tories are the only ones who understand the economy has to be shown up for the, shall we say, distinct exaggeration that it is.

Often the truth is more complex than the misdirection and Ann Pettifor made it very easy to understand - I'm all for that.

Thank you Gracesgran for the Ann Pettifor YouTube clip. It is really worth watching.

I really object to this idea that young people because they are now proving to have ideals and beliefs that there are better ways to run a society do so because they are inexperienced and don't know better. They have taken up an ideology which was built on the experiences and knowledge brought back by men and women who had seen two world wars. It was an ideology trashed by Thatcher and her successor Tony Blair, but it was responsible for the society people my age grew up in. That they have come full circle to once more embrace the idea that riches should be shared and not hoarded by a few, that public services should be properly funded and railways and utilities publicly owned and education be free, is almost miraculous. They were born and raised in an era of greed where there was 'no such thing as society' and personal financial gain was the highest aim. They have rejected that and believe there is a better way. Argue with them if you must but respect their choices. It is a choice others only came to after seeing death and destruction for themselves.

We had a referendum on changing electoral system about 5 yrs ago. The country voted for the status quo.

It was actually seven years ago leeds22, and the Conservatives only agree to the referendum if it was as complicated as possible with a version of AV not PR. In this fast moving world it is not unreasonable to ask that it is looked at again.

The only party that benefits from the current system are the Tories. That will make every Tory and right-wing fellow traveller declare they do not want to look again but we really should expect them to win on a system where every vote counts not a perverse system that goes back to the days when only men, and only those with property could vote.

leeds There is a small part of me that is positively gleeful that the tories remain in power. I want them to own Brexit, they made the puddle and I want them to clean it up!

Earlgrey she is right to be upset about her niece. I am appalled about the way some people use social media to harass and bully. We all have our vote and our experiences, it's good to debate but it's dreadful to bully and belittle.

I have true blue tory voting parents. I despair that they vote the way they do but I love them very much. We mostly avoid politics but will debate from time to time.

Whitewave. We had a referendum on changing electoral system about 5 yrs ago. The country voted for the status quo.

Wouldn't a Corbyn led govt be a minority govt although probably more to your taste. And with less seats.

Just for record, I voted to remain and find DUP highly objectionable too.

Over the last 80 years the tories have borrowed more than labour. Labour did not overspend, they were running a deficit comparable to any other uk party when the global financial crisis hit. They spent money dealing with that crisis, plans which were approved by the tories who would have done the same thing.

Labour spend money on public services, they build schools and hospitals, services improve. Some of the things they do are ridiculous but generally public services are safer in their hands.

I was educated in the eighties under the tories and it was appalling. My daughter is being educated under the tories and I work in education. What is happening in our schools, right now is disgusting. Not just the soul crushing cuts but the changes to the curricuum and other ridiculous idealistic changes that Gove and co brought in.

Our hospitals are on their knees, they are in crisis. People are dying under the tories, this is literally true. Either committing suicide or being declared fit for work and dying 3 days into the new job.

Dying is way worse than people not getting buried.

Earlgrey, your mums experience matters but she is wrong if she thinks that the tories are better with the economy or run the country in a more ordered way, they don't. They cause utter chaos that takes decades to repair.

The tories benefit a few people, they always have but they cause a lot of damage. Wealth is transferred upwards under the tories and trust me there isn't any trickle down.

Hi Lumpy .As for my elderly mum.She feels her experience of living through several Labour governments is that that overspend and then leave a hell of a mess to clear up.That's why she objects to Corbyns manifesto and all the sudden proposals of free tuition fees etc.She loves a good political debate.With with any of us.And is very proud all her grandchildren are passionate about politics and I've had many a spirited discussion ,agreeing to disagree .
But she be upset if she saw our neices FB post addressed to her,by name,and criticising her for not backing Corbyn as a former NHS employee and basically outing ber voting intention.I didn't show her as she doesn't use FB ,but just pointed out to neice air your views face to face where she has recourse to reply,and she agreed it was ill judged.My point was all oppinions are valid,wether through the enthusiasm and optimism of youth,or the experience and sadly,you could say cynicism of age.

That's a good video daphne. I think a lot people are beginning to understand that austerity is largely a way for the Conservatives to make sweeping idealistic changes to the very fabric of our society.

Maddy, he is an odd sort of train crash isn't he? He was practically on his own at the start of the election campaign. 21 points behind and ridiculed by right wing media. He has made huge gains for Labour by walking around the country and talking to people and, more importantly, by listening to people. Labour took Canterbury, then Kensington, train crashes don't tend to do that sort of stuff.

Without any facts.