London fire

And me

Portillo seems to be saying a lot of things, isn't he on a train ( somewhere in Bavaria.)

Exactly ninny and annie but it's a waste of time trying to reason with Corbyn's disciples who really believe he walks on water .

Almost sick that such a tragedy should've be turned into a party political broadcast within minutes of the OP.

? doubled ww.

Agreed gilly but predictable.

Ninny ... make a note to yourself ... just nod and agree..... nod and agree..

I've just been staying in a high rise flat in Romania - my hosts don't understand how this tragedy could have happened. There are loads of tower blocks there and they have very strict regulations which are abided by. Even the old communist blocks are well built. My hosts couldn't remember any tragedy like this occurring. Seems health and safety has actuallty gone mad here, in that it's been lost along the way. This is s tragedy which could so easily have been avoided with just a little more thought for the safety of the tenants.

Did any one see the firefighter talking about his experience at Grenfill this week?

One of the things he said was that one of the things that piss him off is that if any of those victims die in hospital they will not be counted in the government count of fire deaths. They changed the way of collecting the figures so that it looked as if deaths were going down, and that was one of the excuses they gave to firefighting cuts.

It seems to me it's the May 'disciples' who are in denial here. Nobody is saying she had to cry buckets in public. It's not about an outpouring of emotion, not everyone wears their heart on their sleeve. It IS about communication though.

Tell me this. How many other PMs can you remember not making an appearance at the site of a disaster to touch base with those involved i.e. not just the public service heros?

I'm glad she visited victims in hospital, although I imagine that was very harrowing.

Orwell's 1984 comes to mind with all this doublespeak.

That was in reply to whitewave's post.

I did whitewave. He seemed to be very contained but very, very angry. I imagine it would take a lot for a serving fireman to talk out like that.

I think the comments about JC capitalising on this are not really fair. Do you really think TM is handling this well? She could have had a private meeting with some relatives/ community helpers yesterday and she didn't. I don't think that's leadership although I see how it is being spun. I'm not a Corbynite but I think he's good and genuine with people and I think his behaviour yesterday was quite proper. TM blew it - you can't blame him for that. I watched BBC news tonight and the new Labour MP said that even she couldn't get the council to ring her back and no one from the council would appear on the programme. This is a staunchly Tory council - it doesn't look good does it?

It couldnt look worse really

That's interesting Whitewave The Tories and their cuts have SO much to answer for

You and I seem to have different values ninny. I think the demonisation and ignoring of the most vulnerable is disgusting. We're lucky this kind of tragedy doesn't happen more often. It's a culmination of years of neglect.

The firefighter may have been in trouble for speaking out. There was an interesting article in the Guardian this week written about the impact of cuts to the fire service since 2010. The point that struck home to me was the outcome of the fire if it happened outside London.

Cuts to the fire service put lives at risk.

I am not a _ May_ "disciple" wilma in fact you couldn't be much further from the truth . But there's little point in trying to have a reasoned discussion any more on Gransnet is there ?

Typing on a phone ( just incase Mary Poppins pulls up my typos)

As far as I can see, I have been reasonable and wonder why you say that gb? I have said positive things about TM, but on this subject I think she's either misjudged the situation or been badly advised.

A new labour MP said that about a Tory government and a Tory PM, mmmmm

And whilst all this is unfolding, there is still no deal with the --devil incarnate- DUP. My contempt for this group is such that I actually believe that they are the ones truly capitalising, ie taking advantage of this tragedy. They are smelling the blood of a desperately weakened PM with Brexit starting on Monday and deep unrest at home. They will be pushing even harder for what they want - the NI tail is well and truly wagging the GB dog. Who really thinks this is OK? And for those of you that have forgotten, just remember she called a totally unnecessary election at the cost of £130 m to the taxpayer. Of course I can't forgive her but it amazes me that sny, any Tory voter thinks the position she has put us all in at the moment is remotely OK. Had it not been for her vanity project, perhaps there would have been the head space to deal with the aftermath of this tragedy better but the government is spread so thin, no wonder it all feels like headless chickens.

I have finally understood what living in poverty and unspeakable grief means

A single Mum goes out every night to clean leaving her daughter at home asleep, this is no workshy single Mum. In the middle of the night she receives a call from her terrified daughter. Mum hasnt seen her daughter since.

Tbf nothing more could have been done than was done at the time of the fire ( as regards firemen.)
Not at all sure either that it was the result of 'years of neglect' when there had just been a £10 million refit.Sounds more like a badly done refit or mistakes in fitting gaspipes or cladding.It will all come out, but it needs to be soon.

Strike through fail - but you get the picture