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London fire

(1001 Posts)
ninathenana Wed 14-Jun-17 08:12:32

Awful news, just seen this on the news.
Thoughts with everyone involved including firefighters

Jalima1108 Fri 16-Jun-17 18:03:01

Some new towns are being created - perhaps we need more.

With the jobs and infrastructure to go with them too, not just huge estates of houses as is happening in some areas.

suzied Fri 16-Jun-17 18:06:58

I don't think you can say too many people live in London ( as one of them!) where would you rather people lived? The reason why so many people live in London is that is where the work is. Since St Maggie destroyed the manufacturing base of the country the financial and business institutions of London keep much of the rest of us afloat ( just about). That's not desirable but it's where we are. Grenfell Tower is stark microcosm of the inequality in our society. I read that the cost of the more inflammable cladding was £4000 for the whole block, yet the cheaper more flammable option was chosen. Disgusting. Many of those who lived there were security guards, teaching assistants, chefs etc in other words, support workers for the rest of us. I wouldn't be surprised if there are riots, feelings are running so high. This fire was so preventable.

Jalima1108 Fri 16-Jun-17 18:07:44

They need to move more quickly:

www.rbkc.gov.uk/housing/living-healthy-homes/empty-homes
There seems to be an advantage to keeping them empty which should be abolished
If your property has been empty for two years or over you will be able to claim a VAT reduction on the cost of refurbishment. VAT will be charged at a rate of five per cent instead of 20 per cent, renovation works to properties empty for over 10 years will be zero rated. HM Customs and Excise will accept a letter from an empty property officer as proof that the property has been empty for the requisite amount of time.

durhamjen Fri 16-Jun-17 18:10:07

I am not sure that, if it had happened to my family, I would want to stay in the borough. However, they need to be given the choice.

Peterborough was London overspill in the 70s and 80s.
They've now got rid of their Tory MP as well.

mostlyharmless Fri 16-Jun-17 18:12:30

to kill off the health off the health and safety culture for good
David Cameron. 2015.
Just appalling dj .

durhamjen Fri 16-Jun-17 18:15:33

Anyone who still wants to donate, the big give is match funding, so a £20 donation will give them £40.

thebiggive.us10.list-manage.com/track/click?u=2dc027ba3f5f54fdc7633f2b6&id=7344044516&e=266c3d24ef

whitewave Fri 16-Jun-17 18:15:40

Andrea Leadsom turned up and made things worse by being so utterly ineffectual - she didn't seem to understand a thing

GracesGranMK2 Fri 16-Jun-17 18:22:07

There is also more housing in the north ww but those areas have been stripped of jobs. A better balance would help everyone.

I am afraid some people will be stirring things up, and a few hotheads too. On the other-hand the people who lived in the flats have every right to be angry. They seem to have done everything they can to work within the rules and this is what results (I know you know thatsmile)

whitewave Fri 16-Jun-17 18:24:44

When they question the state of the fire risk in the flats they were threatened with legal action.

I would be bloody furious if I was one of them now. And doubly so if I'd lost a family member

WilmaKnickersfit Fri 16-Jun-17 19:48:45

I am not a fan of TM (understatement!), but she came over well to me on the news tonight.

That said, both the council and the government have been too slow out of the blocks. I suspect the council has been overwhelmed and is out of its depth. Definitely a PR failure/nightmare. The government has no such excuse.

The cladding is banned in the US and Germany. It was also blamed for a fire in Australia in 2014.

etheltbags1 Fri 16-Jun-17 20:08:09

I've just read these comments, there's nothing I can add just to say I cried when I heard the news. I'm now watching the demonstrations in London now on tv. Hope there is no violence. God bless those who lost their lives and all who suffered in this tragedy.

Jalima1108 Fri 16-Jun-17 20:19:49

etheltbags yes indeed.

whitewave Fri 16-Jun-17 20:22:03

Brendon Cox

" met people from Grenfill Tower today, - they have every right to be furious. But I hope we channel that anger into justice not violence"

What wise words

Lillie Fri 16-Jun-17 20:29:56

It's wrong to say too many people live in London, it's the capital city and has always housed huge numbers. You only have to study the history of the city or visit the Museum of London to see how the rich and the poor have lived side by side throughout the ages. London has a transient population and each neighbourhood has its peculiar characteristics. As I said before, we all need each other, our diversity is what makes the city tick and there is plenty of room for everyone.

durhamjen Fri 16-Jun-17 20:31:23

CPS involved already.

whitewave Fri 16-Jun-17 20:34:11

Portillo

Says that May totally failed to use her humanity.

It has sent a shameful image about the UK around the world.

It is a transformational moment - everything will have to change

Jalima1108 Fri 16-Jun-17 20:35:03

It is certainly not the most populated city in the world, in fact it is not in the top 20, although other countries may have a larger land area.

durhamjen Fri 16-Jun-17 20:36:47

What are your views on Boris's involvement, Lillie?

daphnedill Fri 16-Jun-17 20:42:39

The population of Greater London is about the same as it was in 1939. What's happened is it's spread, so even areas like mine are commuter belt.

Kensington isn't that different from when I lived there, although I think the inequality is worse and more properties are just investments for the super rich.

Jalima1108 Fri 16-Jun-17 20:46:29

See my link above about the VAT benefits of leaving a property empty before it is renovated.

Anniebach Fri 16-Jun-17 20:47:54

I think that was unfair of Portillo, to say she failed to use her humanity ,he means she didn't make an outward show of emotions ? As for everything will have to change, if this means hugging and weeping publicly then no thanks , I admire her for not seeking out the cameras, it would have boosted her popularity but those people didn't die to boost anyone's popularity , sadly though their deaths will be used by some to do just that. Why can we not accept some do keep their emotions private.

durhamjen Fri 16-Jun-17 20:53:43

"We know Theresa May is bad at her job. Arrogant. Distant. Inflexible. Possessed of poor judgement. Unempathic to the point where it is embarrassing to witness her inability. But let’s, please, not make this personal. She may have tried to make the general election a vote of confidence in her. But it wasn’t. It wasn’t even about party politics, which have for far too long in England and Wales denied people real political choice by putting only variations on a theme before them to choose between. Instead let’s realise that what Theresa May represents so well is a political philosophy and it is not chance that it arrives with someone like her as Prime Minister.

Thatcher put it in a nutshell, of course. She said there was no such thing as society. And she meant it. Neoliberalism says there are only markets. And contractual relationships. But no obligations. No duty. No care. Just mercenary relationships.

And so we get to Grenfell Tower where mercenary considerations mattered more than lives.

And we get to a prime minister incapable of showing that she does care.

At the same time Jeremy Corbyn did what May’s philosophy could never tolerate: he (quite literally) embraced people. He, to quote Louis Armstrong, shook their hands saying “How do you do” when what he actually meant was “I love you”.

Again, I am not going to be personal. Corbyn was far from alone: across London and beyond (because we saw it in Manchester and it could happen anywhere) people have reached out to say the same thing. The Manchester concert a couple of weeks ago (and I watched it, with surprising pleasure) had love for the other person you could not know but who still mattered to you at its very core.

And this difference, or rather the indifference of neoliberalism as opposed to the care of genuine social democracy / socialism is back on the political agenda now. We saw it on June 8. People did not embrace May because they knew she that did not embrace them.

And this might also explain the choice of voters across age groups. My generation has learned to do emotion. My male friends and I openly hug each other now with real joy and affection, unashamed to do so in ways our fathers could never have contemplated. And when I observe younger people I see that they did not have to learn to do this: it is in their DNA, as it was on ours, except we were told to repress it.

Neoliberalism reflected a ghastly selfishness and an emotional isolation that crushed, structured and divided post war society but not its politics until Thatcher appeared on the scene. Now there is a chance to reject that reproach. Now there is the option of putting society first.

Many people are angry about Grenfell Tower. I think that will continue for time to come. This is not something that will be easily forgotten. The mounting death toll over months to come will be an unfortunate and saddening reminder of how devastating this failure to care has been.

But I hope people realise that they have a choice on this. I hope Labour realises that too. I hope it is now completely unambiguous in its rejection of all that has to do with neoliberalism. And I hope it puts real political choice – and the option to care – very firmly and proudly before the people of England and Wales again. Because people need to have that choice. It’s been denied for too long. The callous indifference that led to Grenfell Tower is the evidence of that, where a sprinkler was too much to pay for a life. We cannot go there again."

Richard Murphy.

ninny Fri 16-Jun-17 21:06:31

How low can you get Corbyn and the left capitalising on this tragedy trying to score points over Theresa May, disgusting.

whitewave Fri 16-Jun-17 21:12:03

?confused

Anniebach Fri 16-Jun-17 21:17:47

I do agree with ninny. There should be no - he cried and she didn't , he is a good person and she isn't when it comes to expressing emotions or keeping them untill behind closed doors.

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