London fire

I've just watched a video of Corbyn with some survivors. Maybe not a "better person", but it shows he's the man for the moment, able to relate with other human beings.

I've also read Nick Hurd's announcement, which has clearly been prepared. It ticks the right boxes, but says nothing and is anodyne.

MN report.

Johnson saying "get stuffed" when challenged about cutting firefighters will haunt him, just as Mays police number cutting will haunt her.

Well you brought the photos up ww so a bit late for "good grief".

Good grief

Those photos. Ha ha.

Just because someone is kissy, kissy, touchy, feely does it make them a better person?

I notice he's looking straight into the camera lense too. Making sure they get the shot "look at me aren't I a nice guy?"

Yes, there MUST be an enquiry, an independent one, I don't think anyone is stupid enough, or blindly partisan enough to be saying that there shouldn't be, or that it should all be swept under the carpet. Those who have lost everything, including family and friends, MUST be sure that the enquiry will happen, and blame MUST eventually be apportioned, and YES of course it is in the long run a political matter.

But "facts are chiels which winna ding" and facts are what MUST be exposed, from the warnings about the choice of materials and escape routes given earlier and ignored, to the reported absence of aids for the firefighters and rescuers. The fact that water cannot be pumped up from ground level to more than a certain number of storeys is relevant as another detail.

And the invaluable contributions of Sikh and Muslim neighbours must not be ignored, either.

MN report

Piers Morgan writing about Corbyn

(He showed)

Empathy
Humanity
Leadership

When Morgan writes such things the Tories are clearly in deep do do.

Photos of the two visit spoke volumes why Morgan felt the need to write those words.

Why are you speculating ab when you've just given everybody a lecture about unfunded rumours?

ab I know you remember the Aberfan tragedy. So do I. I remember crying and giving the contents of my piggy bank to the relief fund, as did many others in my school. It was all we could do at the time.

Years later, it came out that there had been warnings and that the tragedy had been avoidable. Warnings had been ignored and/or deemed too expensive. I remember feeling so angry.

The right heads didn't roll after Aberfan and it took too long for anything to happen, but some lessons were learnt.

If we'd had social media at the time, I expect we would all have heard as much as we're hearing today.

And it will all come out in the enquiry, let's hope the question - why did a labour government build such housing and not include fire escapes .

If the fridge did cause the fire have there been reports of that make blowing up or was it a one off

Here's a fact - TM's current chief of staff, Gavin Barwell, when he was housing minister, sat on a report which warned about high rise blocks like GT for four years. A former Chief Fire Officer and now secretary of a parliamentary group on fire safety revealed that successive ministers had had damning evidence since 2013 and did nothing. So I think that's enough of a fact to be getting on with and to justify criticism and questions

Well I know where I would be Annie that's for sure.

Seems very easily Gilly - depending on the government .

Wrong answers are valid? Wonder if the innocent who were found guilty and hanged would have said the jury's answers were valid.

Of course we all seek to right dreadful wrongs but until we know what those "wrongs" were/are then how can anyone point fingers?

How dare the so called have's and have not's live in the same area, it should be ilegal .

Honestly Whitewave that post must be the most daft comment you have uttered. What do you want? brick walls so one section can't see the other?

Wonder how members here would be divided by you ?

If this tragedy had come out of the blue, it would be one thing but there is already so much evidence of concerns and previous reviews, coroners letters etc being ignored re similar events, that people are bound not to be prepared to wait and see. They've waited and seen in the past and look where we are today.

gilly of course not! But if you feel these emotions you will seek to right those dreadful wrongs. That is what I am saying because without the full range of human emotions it is almost impossible to behave as human in these circumstances. Do not criticise those who want to seek answers. Their initial reactions may turn out to be wrong, but that doesn't make them less valid.

You simply cannot ignore the politics in this, and neither are the survivors. They clearly understand how it all leads back to that - read the social network and listen to them.

no, but if you don't feel angry or devastated at what was clearly the most appalling neglect than you can hardly be classed as human imo

I do hope you are not suggesting that I don't feel both angry and devastated ww . If (as it looks) you are,then your post is way below the belt and really quite nasty.

The point I am trying to make is that we cannot turn a tragedy such as this into a party political broadcast when we don't even know the full facts.

But why let the truth and facts stand in the way.

Riverwalk You're right. Many years ago, I lived in any area of Kensington and Chelsea. Where I lived was fairly run down, although it's now been gentrified.

It was almost as though there were physical barriers separating the "haves" and the "have nots".

No, we don't gillybob, which is why I haven't named names. It's too early yet to jump to any conclusions, but it's so obvious that people are traumatised and angry. The problems of social housing - and this area in particular - have been ongoing for years and have been ignored. Nevertheless, I agree with you that we have to wait for official reports. My point is that there must be reports, they mustn't be delayed or left on the back burner and people must wake up and listen.

I don't see how politics will be kept out of it in the long term. There are so many political issues, including housing issues, health/safety/building regs and funding of public services, involved.

I was listening to R4 this lunchtime and the boss of the relevant council area was saying that they would await the results of the inquiry before deciding what to do about the upgrades that have taken place on other similar blocks.

If I lived in one, I would not be happy about that. It would seem better to employ some professionals to double check the safety on these other blocks right now and to take any necessary steps to make them safe.

One suggestion was that suspended ceilings might have been added, which would create a conduit for smoke, negating the compartmentalisation principle.

No, but if you don't feel angry or devastated at what was clearly the most appalling neglect than you can hardly be classed as human imo

Both Cameron and Osborne live within minutes' walk of Grenfell Tower - I wonder if they've visited and offered support.

GN members, often justifiably, complain how the news is London-centric and that disasters/atrocities elsewhere don't receive adequate coverage. On this occasion it's unfortunately a 'good' thing that the location is where it is, i.e. next door to the BBC HQ at White City and the home of many of the national/international reporters, politicians and the 'movers & shakers'.

The enormity of the situation and death toll would have resulted in saturation coverage but the particular location will ensure that this doesn't drop off the radar and will stay centre-stage for some time to come.

Those who don't know the area, you will have noticed that outside the cordoned-off zone where the TV crews are, is a very desirable neighbourhood (Notting Hill) and it just puts into sharp focus how the Haves & Have-nots live, cheek by jowl.

I truly despair that a truly tragic event such as this should be turned into a party political broadcast.

We still don't know the TRUE facts do we?