The - we don't have a Labour thread, thread

No it was the Guardian gg but almost certainly with less flowery language and more sense

I am sure we will find out, whitewave, as Corbyn wants to involve the people, not keep everything secret.

I do hope he does share Jen. I think it is the most sensible question to ask about Brexit at this point in time. Just read the 'socialist Brexit' article. The suggestion that Europe would feel less happy negotiating with Corbyn is interesting.

Well he isn't the government so I'm not surprised.

We must be driving Europe round the bend

I don't think that is what the article meant Whitewave. He wouldn't be negotiating unless he was in government.

I agree we must be driving the EU round the bend though - and that's just the Mayitocracy.

Did you notice that that article said it could take decades to negotiate trade agreements?

I don't know if you know anything about the author Jen but it reads as if he is very pro-Brexit to me.

Interestingly there has been a recent Project 28 Poll. In an article in the Spectator they say that each if the EU 27 were granted an in-out referendum like Britain's only one country would vote to leave, but some have very ambivalent views about the union and its ability to last long into the future believing that it won't exist in ten years time. This includes 41 per cent of Italians, 32 per cent of the French, and 28 per cent of Germans. In the short-term fears of a referendum like ours is likely to hold things together.

My thoughts are that so many unexpected things have happened when people who feel they are not heard have a chance to shout "listen" recently, I wonder what would happen if the Corbyn got in here and led a movement with his fellow socialists on the continent to change the EU?

www.flint-global.com/brexit-advice/

He works for this company that gets paid by other companies to give them advice on Brexit, GracesGran.
So I imagine he is very pro-Brexit.

GracesGran, those figures mean that the majority in France, Italy and Germany think that the EU will still exist, bigger majorities than in our referendum.
Think positively.

I wasn't really thinking positively or negatively, just throwing it out there. I think when so many unexpected things have happened it's a bit like waiting for the other shoe to drop.

In my opinion, a close relationship with Europe is far preferable to being dependent on countries such as the US, China, Saudi, etc., for trade deals. It could also be argued, I think, that there was some sense in countries being part of an organisation through which they could trade freely whilst at the same time protecting workers' rights and having a regulatory framework to protect consumers and the environment.

However, I think the EU has got a bit like those extremely successful businesses that find themselves to be quite powerful and so decide to branch out in all directions, acquiring businesses here there and everywhere and over-stretching themselves. Whilst I think it is right and sensible to try and help other countries to achieve economic parity with their neighbours, I think it was foolhardy within a relatively short space of time to invite so many countries into the EU which were on a completely different economic footing from the current members. Greece is a country that has suffered greatly and which has been brought to its knees and which, on top of all its economic problems, has been given little assistance to help re-settle/re-locate the refugees who have arrived on its shores. Instead of rallying round supporting Greece, it was humiliated and abandoned - not a great advertisement for membership.

Another way of viewing Europe is how many developing nations may see it - as a club which excludes them and whose trading arrangements negatively affect their own trading position. So whilst the EU countries were trying to create a fairer and more prosperous Europe, it was impacting unfairly upon those people outside the "club".

Having said all that, because I feared that leaving the EU would make us even more economically dependent on and culturally influenced by the US, and that those on the right would take full advantage of their admitted wish to have a "bonfire of regulations", I voted to remain. Had there been a left wing Labour government in power I might have voted differently. But I saw the sort of people, businesses and organisations that were championing Brexit - and the whipped-up notions of inward-looking nationalism that pervaded their arguments, and decided that, with a Conservative government in power, it was too big a risk to take.

Now, I feel disillusioned with both "camps" and I think we are in a real mess. I don't know what the answer is. I do feel strongly, though, that going in with all guns blazing will be like a red rag to a bull (forgive the cliches). Unfortunately the team cobbled together to deal with "Brexit" appears incapable of forming any coherent strategy and incompetent people like Boris Johnson and Liam Fox just add to the chaotic mix.

Corbyns meeting with Barnier lasted lasted almost half as long as the entire formal meetings the government has had since A50 was triggered in March.

Starmer said there was a frank exchange of positions. This is expected to be the first of a series of meetings, in order to continue the process. So we were able to explain our overall approach, not only for A50, but also for transitional and final arrangements.

Officials have admitted that such talks have become important since the inconclusive election.

Corbyn also met the UK ambassador, and Junkers deputy.

Labour's position was made clear over regulatory alignment, and legal positions. It also explained that it is moving rapidly in view of the message it was getting from the voter towards a very soft Brexit.

We know that Labour is in serious talks with a large number of Tory MPs working towards a Brexit that puts jobs and the economy first. There will be no " over the cliff" no arbitrary cap on immigration.

May has a lot of ground to make up to understand just how much has changed since June 8th

Lord Adonis (an ardent remainer) has said this morning that their is a change happening throughout the country away from Brexit and towards remain.

Labour he said always listens to their constituents. Labour wants the best for the workers and employees throught the country. Labour will allow nothing to damage the countries economy.

I think that our idea that Labour is gradually moving away from Brexit is gloriously beginning to come about.

Eloethan you have articulated my own views, and reasons for voting remain, perfectly. I have often struggled to put them into words, and have often felt very isolated amongst family and friends who were more convinced remainers. Thank you.

On inviting other countries into the EU, I recall reading that the UK was the only country that wanted Turkey as a member, not so long ago.

The difference between Labour and Tory Brexit discussions is that Labour has lawyers involved, Tories have spivs.

whitewave

I think that our idea that Labour is gradually moving away from Brexit is gloriously beginning to come about.

I would agree with you but I do try to acknowledge from time to time that I live in as much of a bubble as do Leavers who are surrounded by other Leavers.
So, much as I would like it to be true, here is a bit of a corrective from John Harris:

Brexit is clearly a terrible idea. But it has to happen

The big question, though, centres on where Brexit came from, and what sustains it. A large part of the answer is about an ingrained English exceptionalism, partly traceable to geography but equally bound up with a puffed-up interpretation of our national past, which has bubbled away in our politics and culture for decades. The likes of Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson have used it for their own ideological ends; in the kind of post-industrial places long ignored by Westminster politicians it turned out to be the one bit of pride and identity many people had left. It runs deep: even if the economy takes a vertiginous plunge, it will take a lot longer than two years to shift it.

The only way such delusions will fade is if they are finally tested in the real world and found wanting, whereupon this country may at last be ready to humbly engage with modernity. And in that sense, to paraphrase a faded politician, Brexit probably has to mean Brexit. That may result in a long spell of relative penury, and an atmosphere of recrimination and resentment. By the time everything is resolved a lot of us will either be very old or dead. But that may be the price we have to pay to belatedly put all our imperial baggage in the glass case where it belongs, and to edge our way back into the European family, if they will have us.
In the meantime, this messiest of national dramas grinds on, and not for the first time the story suggests the priceless words of the American writer and satirist HL Mencken: “Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard.”

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/14/brexit-eu-referendum

www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-07-13/seven-lessons-for-theresa-may-as-brexit-talks-resume

The EU always wins.

However, Maizie, whitewave has as much of a chance to be right as John Harris.

I still fear a labour majority because they have gone too far left and that is not good. However I do notice that Chris Bryant (also of Open Britain) has rejoined the shadow cabinet.

Having Labour as the largest party in a Hung Parliament would be better than the mess we have now. They are more honest than the Tories but the centre ground is still stuck between a rock and a hard place. Extreme left and right politics we have now is so bad for the country.

When will we get PR if ever - at least some in labour support PR?

maizie Yes I have just sat reading that article over breakfast.

Harris always likes playing devils advocate, and I'm not sure I entirely agree with his analyses.

Well I jolly well hope he is wrong anyway, and I truly believe that the tide is turning and beginning to flow more strongly toba rejection of Brexit.

I must look at the polls.

cinders

Labour policies reflect the vast majority of those you would find in Europe. Even Merkel would recognise the attitude towards the worker and work place involvement. Labours economic stance is also based on the German one.

Don't believe what you read in the press.

It couldn't possibly be worse than what we've got. A failing economy, a failing government and a country totally divided.
Not bad for 7 years work is it?

Cindersdad I'm with you on that

Chris Bryant is on the Corbyn hit list

Hilary Benn and Yvette Cooper both return as chair of their select committees , unoposed

I'm not an expert on the economic policy of any country, but there's always criticism of German intransigence in the face of low economic growth and high unemployment. Germany is massively different from the UK economically and has a different set of problems.

I still fear a labour majority because they have gone too far left

I am always puzzled by statements like this. In what way do you think they've gone 'too far left' cindersdad? Is it because they appear to be abandoning neo-liberal 'austerity' policies which have been ingrained in the DNA of politicians (and swallowed hook line and sinker by the populace) ever since the Thatcher government took office?