Brexit negotiations starting tomoorow

There's going to be Brexit, so pointless keep talking it down. It's happening, so we need the best deal we can, our fishermen will be able to fish where they want for one, and we can make our isn't decisions that affect our country and not faceless beurocrats in Brussels. We can hopefully, be friends with fellow Europeans and have a good trading policy, it's just all down to negotiation.

Hammond appears to have read the Labour manifesto on Brexit.

Carney announced that the UK is poorer because of Brexit.. we haven't even left yet!!!! Talk about suicide.

Barnier made Davis look like a fool yesterday. Hammond's Mansion House speech this morning was hopefully the beginning of the end of Brexit and a return to common sense.

Apologies, Struggling

I did take it at face value but there was a niggling doubt. It's very difficult to judge 'tone' in a forum post. (perhaps that's why there are so many little spats on these threads..)

No sarcasm, just amazed, why should someone think I was being other than very interested? Interpreting a message is what it is all about - why not take things at face value, instead of putting a bad connotation on it? I am amazed....
Well done for enjoying your retirement and being so interested in life and all its current problems.

You are a better person than me Maizie; I imagined she was

Why do we put education/learning/knowledge down so much in this country? Another thread perhaps.

Sad thing is, the actual good of our country is low priority,

Particularly among Brexit supporters; who seem quite happy to contemplate the economic ruin of our country for the sake of the nebulous notion of 'taking back control'.

I'm retired, Struggling I can do what I like with my time.

I don't know how people manage to post on lots of Gnet threads; they really do amaze me. I just stick to a very few issues (and read a lot around them)

(I'm assuming here that you're not being sarcastic...)

I imagine she has educated herself over the years Struggling. Is that really something to sneer at?

Gosh MaizieD - you seem to get everywhere and be so knowledgeable - how do you have the time - please share your secret 'cos I'm very short of time and would like to know your secret. Feel like a lesser mortal with only 24 hours in my day... not like many politicians who manage several jobs alongside what I thought was a salaried full-time job?

We don't actually have to 'share'. We might choose not to be part of the 'whole world' economy. Now I am sure you Maizie, and I certainly would, think that was madness but I truly believe some think we can live just trading within our English boundaries. I say 'English' advisably as, should we decide to do this we would certainly loose Scotland and probably Northern Ireland and Wales - which, though the government treats them as fiefdoms at times are still separate countries. They would have to look at what they could do to save themselves. Indeed, instead of the United Kingdom (which should be the United Kingdoms in my view anyway) we could end up with England and the Celtic Kingdoms, the latter looking to re-join the EU. Wales might stay as they voted to leave but the conditions in the country might drive them to revise their choice.

We are already looking a difficult economic situation in the face and all the Conservatives, driven by the Neoliberals since Thatcher's day, can offer are the economics which made the Great Depression even worse in the USA and also here, after the crash of the stock market - very much along the lines of the Global Crisis in our recent past.

Sad thing is, the actual good of our country is low priority, I think you have identified the problem rosesarered. It's politicians thirst for power at any cost. Amazingly though, why do they not mind handing such a lot of power i.e. decision-making over us, to the EU?

Because you cannot trade without sharing decisions.

I think you'll find that any trade deal, with any country, whether made through the EU or independently, requires some agreement on standards, quotas and tariffs. Not to mention some freedom of movement. You may not remember this but but when there was talk of trade deals with India one of the things that India wanted was for the UK to allow more immigration from India. We don't have an empire any more. We can't go round taking all the time from other countries without them wanting something in return.

We need to trade and the EU, by means of its numerical superiority as a market, is able to obtain standards that it requires in the goods being traded. As a much smaller market if we go it alone we are in a weaker negotiating position.

Why share any decisions at all when it comes to laws/policies etc.

Further to my post above I've done a bit of copying and pasting from a mumsnet thread. I'm pretty sure any figures quoted are correct but you, dear reader, are welcome to do your own checking (as I did with qq's shouty post). Once again, it addresses the 'being ruled from Brussels' point.

Start

Managing any organisation has to see the bigger picture and keep things in context.

As I've posted on other threads....

*Lone matters-*We have 100% MP control on the following many rules and regulations :Health policy. Education. Fiscal policy. Public expenditure. Monetary policy. Income tax. Corporation tax. Capital gains tax. Inheritance tax. Border control and security. Non-EU immigration. Pensions. Welfare. Foreign policy decisions. Defence. Military Intelligence. Development cooperation and humanitarian aid. All local government. National policing. Crime. Media and press regulation. Family law. Property law and succession of estates.

Joint matters -We agreed to have a joint say (currently 73/748 so 9.7 %) over the following matters.Energy.Climate.Environment.Agriculture. Some Employment. Consumer.Transport. Some crime. Asylum.VAT. Foreign policy (EU). Single Market.Competition.Fisheries.EU migration. So we jointly decided what happens here and in the other 27 member states too.On both a soft and hard Brexit scenario we lose this control.

We made the pragmatic decision to share ^some^ joint law making power with our neighbours over matters requiring decent standards such as Agriculture, environment and food like cucumbers. This was in return for open access to a $16.6 trillion annual market, a decision that paid off- strengthening the UK’s economic position hugely.

Voting records since 1999 show that we agreed with the regulations passed jointly by us and other member states 2,466 times. We only voted ‘No’ to laws passed 56 times and abstained 70 times. UK ministers agreed with what our and the other MEPs were doing about light bulbs etc 95% of the time, abstained 3% of the time, and disagreed only 2% of the time.

So the mind set we are ruled by this distant machine is profoundly incorrect :
a.We are ( were) a disproportionately large part of that Parliament ; and
b. Our government agreed with the decisions anyway.

So the advocates of a hard Brexit are blaming our EU membership for
administrative matters that our government agreed with the vast majority of the time.

End

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/2956340-Westministenders-The-bookends-to-a-year-of-political-chaos-Just-how-far-have-we-come?pg=33&order=

Why would anybody want people in Brussels telling their country what they can and can't do?

Why indeed, roses?

Because 'people in Brussels' don't tell us what to do.

Repeating the lies that have been fed to you doesn't make them true.

I note that quizqueen hasn't defended my critique of the copied and pasted list of figures s/he pasted on another thread. Is that because they turned out to be yet another set of exaggerations and complete fictions that were carefully fed to people?

I agree with you Quizqueen and if the Tories ( or Labour!) muck it up we can vote them out of power.Why would anybody want people in Brussels telling their country what they can and can't do?Bring it on indeed!

So sniping at Corbyn and Labour is okay, is it, gagsy?

I don't like all the sniping at the Tories. (I don't belong to any political party!) but if you really think that Labour under Corbin will be any kinder or fairer you'll have a sad awakening. It's so easy for any party to promise the world when they're in opposition and once the're elected they will face the same problems and make the same mess!

For those who wish to be European.

Unfortunately it's just a cover, not the whole passport.

David Davis just made it look easy for the EU.

jackofkent.com/2017/06/the-significance-of-the-uks-climb-down-today-on-brexit-sequencing/

Kate Hoey did a lot of scaremongering. Shame she got re-elected.

France has a lot of nationalisation - Gas, Rlectric railways - lots of things so I don't think that can be right - just scaremongering!

t.co/25Sk33XaGV

Today's agreement.
Citizens rights seen as very important.