Brexit: On a scale of 1 to 10, where do you stand?

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/29/ireland-says-dozen-london-based-banks-to-relocate-to-dublin-over-brexit

Ireland is going to do well out of Brexit.

I'm very upset by the latest sackings by Corbyn, someone who always voted with his conscience (which is commendable) but doesn't allow others to do so. As a remained I still don't know if supporting Labour is a good thing; I fear that they are snatching defeat from the jaws of victory now. Very worried.....

tegan the Labour MPs stood on the Labour manifesto. The shadow cabinet is always expected to support this otherwise there would be chaos, just as you are finding in the Tory party at the moment with a weakened PM too scared to sack her ministers.

Umuuna was wrong to put forward that motion, but I think he almost certainly did so because if his own agenda.

The Labour Party needs to keep its powder dry for a while as the Tories descend into more and more chaos over Brexit - which they will. There is no rush.

Later we shall see

When Corbyn voted with his conscience he was a backbencher.
He could take the whip away from those backbenchers who did as he did, but he hasn't as far as I know.

Umunna must have known that such a broad motion would not have succeeded, so why did he do it?

It might have been okay if he'd just put another one in about the paycap, particularly as we now know that some Tory backbenchers would have supported it.
May gave in on the abortion motion.

1 then and 1 now. What a stupid idea the referendum was. Leaving the EU, as we now see, isn't just a yes or a no.The debates were dreadful, no-one knew then or now what the effects will be and, what lies were bandied about.

I was a 1, but almost changed my view after I heard this brilliant speech by Tony Benn, it must have been soon before he died:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWnpbEMMsNw
I wonder if that's why Jeremy Corbyn has mixed feelings about it, he must have admired Tony Benn.

Benn and Corbyn sang from the same Hymn Sheet hence the voices that say Corbyn has always been Eurosceptic.

How magnificent Benn was at the age of 82. A completely unscripted and convincing speech. I agreed with everything he said (although I voted to remain) and am now even more troubled.

However, I still have the feeling that, out of the EU, we will be dominated by other forces anyway because the world as a whole isn't democratic. That is borne out by the fact that "The world's 8 richest people have the same wealth as half of humanity" (Business Insider). If we are out of the EU, I fear we will be pushed from pillar to post by the super powers and if we don't align ourselves with one of them, we will find ourselves in a very vulnerable position.

On the other hand..............

I've just read this in The I:

Taxpayer money "lines pockets" of rich landowners".

"Britain's wealthiest landowners are raking in millions of pounds of taxpayers' money through the agricultural subsidy system.

"I can report that 36 of the country's very richest people received more than £18 million of direct EU subsidy payments........ Meanwhile, smaller farmers complain that they see far too little of the subsidy cash"

This includes James Dyson, a Saudi prince race horse breeder, the Duke of Westminster, The Queen, The Duke of Northumberland, The Duke of Buccleuch, Earl Bathurst, etc. etc.

This is surely a major concern because it appears to entrench and extend the power and wealth or rich landowners, while disadvantaging small farmers. George Monbiot reported in 2013:

"An uncapped subsidy system damages the interests of small farmers. It reinforces the economies of scale enjoyed by the biggest landlords, helping them to drive the small producers out of business. A fair cap (say of €30,000) would help small farmers compete with the big ones."

If anyone would like to read it, it's a very interesting article: www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jul/01/farm-subsidies-blatant-transfer-of-cash-to-rich

Can you see a Tory government changing things so that small farmers benefit rather than their rich friends, Eloethan?

No, you're probably right durhamjen. But the EU seems to be reinforcing this inequality, which suggests that whether the establishment here or the establishment there runs things, the average person seems to be far down the list of priorities.

That may well be why many farmers voted Brexit and not, as someone said on another thread, because they are 'naive'.

They were split on the vote, presumably those receiving the subsidies were for Remain but others, who felt cheated out of their fair share, may have voted for Brexit.

From the farmers I have seen interviewed since A50 was triggered many are sorry and wish they had voted to remain - they had believed they would be paid the same amount as the subsidy by the UK Govt - it has been guaranteed till 2020 I think. Now they realise that things will be very hard for them - particularly the farmers who have flocks of sheep which thrive on the mountainside keeping it fit for walkers etc - I think they have quite a big subsidy.

Daphne, report at your pleasure, I was quoting your post on Sunday 23 June in which you stated you had to be thick not to agree with you. I was simply asking you to explain why you think anyone that doesn't agree with you is thick. I would never be so rude as to suggest anyone is thick, some people have learning difficulties and I wouldn't call them thick. You said it, not me. So really we should be reporting you or you report yourself as you think it is a term worth reporting and you said it.

I pad error, it was Sunday 25 June, not 23.

I was told that many tenant farmers were aggrieved that EU money goes to the landowner who then doesn't pass it down to them, although I'm not sure if this is the fault of the EU or if something could have been done about it by the government. As for Tony Benn; he is my hero and was lucky to meet him a couple of times and shake his hand.However, my problem with his views (along with the other politician that I had great admiration for, Michael Foot) is that they only work if everyone else is as decent and selfless as they are, which, unfortunately isn't the case. And I feel that, whatever faults the EU has it does prevent a lot of bad things happening and makes sure that money is distributed more fairly amongst the poorer people and areas (albeit not, it seems, when it comes to tenant farmers!). Have to admit to not clicking on the link and listening to it, though, as I'm away from home with a tablet that doesn't work very well; will check it out when I get home....

Eloethan - one of my cousins is a tenant farmer (sheep) for the Duke of Northumberland. I'll have to get in touch and ask him what the word is up there. I haven't spoken to him for ages, but I know he's a bit of a rebel.

I'd love to know that, Tricia! I've heard that he keeps the rent from his properties in Alnwick pretty high.

interesting link tricia. My late Father voted Tory, but he wholeheartedly admired Tony Benn because he had principles, stuck by them and didn't care a fig for party politics and the whips. It's a pity more, on all sides of the house didn't think the same way and were more concerned with representing their constituents instead of protecting their own path up the greasy pole of party politics.

Strangely enough, Tegan, when Alcan closed down near Ashington, it was discovered that the farms there were owned by the Queen - or Crown Estates.

That's what Corbyn gets criticised for, GillT.

Corbyn 'had' principles, stuck by them and didn't care a fig for party politics and the whips.

Once he became Leader he gave up his principles for party politics.

Corbyn has become what he used to rail against . So it obviously follows he will be criticized.

In what way has Corbyn given up his principles for party politics?

I understand from our local NFU insurance agent that farmers in our area (a Leave area) were pretty much split 50/50 over Leave/Remain. The few that I know bury their heads in their hands and groan when Brexit is mentioned.

It's all very well complaining about the CAP subsidy going to landowners rather than the tenant farmers who work the land but we don't know if the money is passed on to them or not.

The Crown Estates belong to the state, not the monarch. We went into this in some depth a while ago. George III (as I recall) surrendered them to state control in exchange for an income.