London Fire -2

DJ I have had a fascinating few hours delving into Scottish Building regulations and discovering that

1) in Tower blocks higher than fire hoses can reach an alternative source of water must be provided within the block at upper levels. Scottish Water must be contacted to certify that water pressure will ALWAYS be sufficient at that level if not a huge water tank must be installed (perhaps on the roof) from which water can be pumped to hydrants throughout the building. A water tank is also required to feed sprinkler systems if domestic building is over ??? storeys. Alternative systems e.g. foam may be permitted in non domestic premises.

2) Cladding must be 100% non-flammable

3) Any pipework (for electrics, sewage or water, no gas permitted in high rise) must be boxed in or embedded such that there are no tiny gaps around the pipework where smoke could rise to upper floors. Ceilings less than 2 metres high must have ventilation to allow smoke to escape (with high ceilings smoke gathers above head height, giving time for residents to escape.)

4) Automatic fire alarms/smoke detectors which are hard wired not battery operated must be fitted in kitchens, living rooms and landings within houses/flats and also in communal areas, corridors, staircases. Emergency lighting fitted to public areas, particularly escape routes and stairs within buildings must have its own protected power source. Adequate signage (consult with Fire Service) must be provided indicating escape routes and Exits.

The above is just a small sample of the reams of Guidance and Regulations.

There was a root and branch review following the fire in an Ayrshire high rise in 1999 and the current regulations date from 2004 but are updated and reissued annually with occasional emergency amendments as required.

As far as I can ascertain, The Scottish Building Regulations have been quite separate from those in England/Wales since time immemorial, bearing in mind that traditionally Scottish construction methods and house types differed significantly from those in England, probably to do with different climate, availability of materials e.g red sandstone in Glasgow, granite in Aberdeen, red pantiles in Fife, etc., just as there are regional variations throughout England and huge differences between houses in say Scandinavia and Spain.

I remember some 40 years ago being told by a friend who was a Quantity Surveyor and Estimator that he had been given the task of amending the spec. for an estate of private houses to be built by a very successful English developer making their first foray into Scotland. Our friend was at his wits end because the 'off the peg' plans and spec which had passed muster all over England, just would not fit into the Scottish Categories and had to be treated as 'homes of unusual construction'. I think the builder did eventually complete the estate and sold all the houses but made a significant loss on the project.

About Scotland at the moment. A fire in Scotland in 1999 had all the regulations changed by 2005 where no similar cladding could be used. That's why Scottish high rises are better.
Just been said that the government did not act properly after the two fires in England, and someone should not be sleeping well at night.
Quite a few, I think, who thought that fire regulations were too strict and voted against any improvements.

Results still not being open.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/26/tower-block-cladding-tests-after-grenfell-fire-lack-transparency-say-experts

It's not just pass or fail.

inews.co.uk/essentials/news/uk/five-year-old-grenfell-tower-victim-died-inhalation-fumes-family-tried-flee-inquest-hears/

All died from breathing in toxic fumes.

Another thing, Eloethan, is the question of fire alarms.
I had them tested every three months. I did a test myself every week to make sure they were still working. I kept a record.
Someone must have been responsible for that. Where were they?

BY the way, May said they were going to be testing 100 blocks a day. So far 75 have been tested.

I don't understand that either Eloethan. When I think about the regulations for guest houses, and the inspections we had. It doesn't make sense.

I address my questions to you, roses, because you are the one who was saying it was okay. I am telling you it wasn't.

I said they were taking in self-closing firedoors, and you said you didn't think they needed them.
I gave you the relevant regulation to show YOU you were wrong. Nobody else questioned it.

'I lived in a high rise once' is not proof enough. Perhaps you were just lucky that there was no fire when you lived there.
However, we now know the consequences of what happens when the rules are ignored, and people who complain are threatened with legal action.
I really hope someone has copies of those letters, and not all were burnt.

It was said on London Tonight that there was a fire inspection in, I think, April last year. Why weren't these major safety issues picked up then?

The logistics are mind blowing. They couldn't get one Tower and the few survivors sorted, God only knows how they are going to deal with 600

But those fire doors were not fitted with closing mechanisms -so worse than useless.

Camden Council going to be in trouble then.....

Why address every question to me durham ?

Have just remembered that in Grenfell Towers those doors were fitted to every flat, a resident was on tv talking about it.

I have no knowledge over what goes on in Camden btw

1000 firedoors missing in Camden.
That okay, roses?

My guest house had to have fire doors on every room and in between the corridors, so everywhere there was a common area where guests could meet each other needed to be protected.
Should guest houses have to be safer than flats in high rise blocks? I don't think so.

Whatever, roses. They should have been there anyway.
But actually you are wrong.

pproved Document B2 provides guidance on when fire
doors should be fitted within flats. There is a
specific recommendation that the entrance door to a
flat that opens onto a common area should be a fire door, classified as meeting a half-hour fire resist
ance, fitted with smoke seals and self closing.

www.theguardian.com/housing-network/2016/mar/18/tony-blair-profiting-housing-crisis-investment-property

I don't think so anyway, am trying to remember, as I lived in a high rise once.

Those doors may be the ones that you go through ( to access ) each floor, but they wouldn't be used as front doors to the flats.

Roses, you need to read up about right to buy.
All those flats were not necessarily council flats.
Lots of them could have been legally bought and then rented out to people on housing benefit.

The Blair family own lots of flats that were built as council flats.

If they are taking in self-closing doors, it means the ones there that they are replacing were not even fire doors.
If your self-closer stops working properly you can just buy a self-closer. You don't need to replace the whole door.

No need for rudeness ww and what I said was were they 'watering down the regs for cladding '
Nobody knew how dangerous the cladding was until the Grenfell fire, so if the government will now relook at cladding and regulations that can only be a good thing.
Do private landlords use cladding? A requirement on standards on this may well come in later, at the moment there is a duty to check and change cladding to public buildings.

Just seen that they have had a supply of self-closing doors taken into the Camden Towers.
Had to have those in my guest house. Why are they not in those flats?

Your not wrong Eloethan Re the 'risk factor. There was a big case in the USA some years ago when it came out at trail that they knew a component ( this caused many deaths) was wrong. But they did the numbers and carried on as the cost of Re jigging the whole production line was more expensive than compensation

Well then rose you aren't up to date visa a visa watering down regulations.

I'll repeat it as you seem to have difficulty understanding it.

The government did a panicked u- turn on its plan to water down fire regulations after Grenfell Tower. However it still has no plans to force private landlords to follow the fire regulations

Who has suggested the flats were full of illegal immigrants? Of course there may have been some, but the council wants any (now homeless) illegal immigrants....if there are any from Grenfell Tower to come forward and not be scared.

I doubt this cladding question has much to do with any government ww as high rises have cladding in some cases from way back ( possibly when there was a Labour Government.) This fire proves that in certain conditions the whole block can go up, so cladding has to be looked at again and assessed.This present government wasn't going to water down any health and safety requirements to cladding as far as I am aware.