London Fire -2

In the meantime......

The enquiry is still going on and everything else is hearsay.

My ex was a firefighter and whilst they do a fantastic job the benefits they get are just as fantastic.

In the meantime

www.constructionnews.co.uk/projects/contracts/rydon-in-line-for-65m-west-london-housing-job/10020892.article?blocktitle=Most-popular&contentID=-1

A letter to Simon Cowell from somebody who lost friends in the fire:

i-d.vice.com/en_gb/article/grenfell-tower-simon-cowell-charity-single?utm_source=idfbuk&utm_campaign=global

It's worth reading.

You're probably right, although I suppose it's a start. Hopefully, people won't be so gullible about swallowing the government's austerity myths.

At the moment I don't see much chance of u-turns. I think it is more likely that future cuts will be less severe than planned.

I share your concerns.

I think we are about to see some u-turns on austerity, although whether any politicians really understand economics is another matter. Most of them have bought into the "no magic money tree myth". I know that some prominent economists are working hard to get their voices heard in the mainstream. Younger people are more likely to understand Keynesian theory than those brought up on Thatcherism.

I really think we have reached a tipping point and people in their 20s and early 30s are bearing the brunt of it. It's no longer about people "on the edges" (the unemployed, disabled, etc) but really is hitting the majority - and it will get worse. Grenfell Tower has been a powerful metaphor about inequality and the consequences of cutting red tape and disregard for the much derided 'elf and safety for the sake of saving a few pounds. Public service workers are becoming ever more vocal. Quite honestly, society is becoming dysfunctional and the reaction to Corbyn shows just how many people have been prepared to vote Labour, even while holding their noses.

Nevertheless, I'm very concerned about schools and hospitals. The Queen's speech was silent on them. Schools are still facing a real cut of 8%, which will inevitably affect education. Thankfully, the silly grammar school idea has been ditched, but there's still nothing about quality vocational education. Robert Halfon, the MP who has done most in this field has been sacked.

My biggest fears are for the NHS, especially with the Naylor Report and the secret caps. It's appalling that the public hasn't even been informed, never mind consulted. I wrote to my new MP, but haven't received a reply. I really would like Labour to take this up. We're losing the NHS we've all known for 70 years.

Nevertheless, I'm quietly confident that more people than ever have an appetite for change. People need to be much more aware how governance works and make sure nothing is done without their knowledge. I'm glad that young people are becoming more involved and aware.

It will be interesting to see how things change. My concern is the government will quietly continue with its existing policies, whilst keeping Brexit in the headlines. Maybe the Grenfell tragedy will be a turning point, but I am not optimistic.

I don't think you're the only one who feels like that. Grenfell Tower will remain a metaphor for many years.

I genuinely feel that we're at the beginning of a social revolution, for all sorts of reasons.

PS. Just been watching Corbyn's speech at Glastonbury.

"The Times They Are a-changin'"

To me it's a warning that we should stop in our tracks, seriously consider whether we can go on recklessly ignoring the facts and avoiding facing up to responsibilities, or wait for a disaster to bring us to our senses.
Hmmmm ... the same could apply in other contexts too.
A sad, sad metaphor.

Yes, it really is tragic.

I'm glad the decision on schools has been reversed. A lot of new schools will have to be retrofitted now.

Isn't it tragic that so many people have had to die to make the powers that be see some kind of sense?

Government proposals to drop fire safety standards in new schools (including sprinklers) have been dropped.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/24/government-u-turn-over-fire-safety-controls-for-new-schools

Good!

Interesting article Daphne. I think Sajid Javid has looked very thoughtful. I really think some of the MPs have become very distanced from ordinary lives and this may bring a few back to thinking about what it is they are in power for.

Good article about the flats, daphne.

"Is it fake news?

The idea that St Edward was being especially generous by offering the flats for use in this way certainly is: they were always going to be social housing.

But the developer is undoubtedly helping get the flats ready for occupation faster, which will probably cost them money.

The flats were originally due for occupation between October and December. Now they are expected to be ready at the end of July.

The Government is also helping to subsidise this more rapid turnaround, which a spokesperson said would cost £2m-£3m, with the money coming out of the Communities department budget.

So an accurate way for the Government to have presented its action would have been to claim that it was using public funds to speed up the provision of social housing in Kensington that was already in the pipeline and specifically earmarking it for the benefit of ex-Grenfell residents."

How come those buying expensive flats did not know this?
All that is happening is that they are being made available earlier.

Camden tower block tenants are being moved out until safety checks are complete.

5 Camden tower blocks being evacuated

Maizie of course there is a difference between something being banned and something being used incorrectly or illegally - alcohol isn't banned but you can't drink over a certain amount if it and drive. Well - we are finding out more

I heard someone on R4 (the Today program) say that their are problems with getting appropriate H&S requirements becuase they are perceived as deterring developers from building.

^ I remain bemused as to why there is no understanding of the point she was making that nothing said in Parliament should prejudice any possible prosecution/legal procedures.^

I'm sure you are, POGS.

But my point was that there was probably more to the 'persistent' questioning than meets the eye. (Not that it meets my eye but more politically astute people than me might well have gathered something from it)

How relevant is 'testing' to any potential legal proceedings?

Honest question as I don't know.

I would surmise that it would only be relevant if there were a 'legal' specification for the materials to be used in cladding. The cladding used wasn't banned in this country so I'm assuming that we don't have any legal standards for materials used for cladding.

It's funny you should say that dd* because I heard him being interviewed on R4 the other day and as the interview wore on, I felt my default cynicism dissipating. Maybe, just maybe .....

There was a short article in the Guardian today about Sajid Javid:

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/23/sajid-javid-grenfell-has-shaken-my-comprehension-of-being-in-office

He doesn't say exactly what he means, but I believe him when he says he shaken.

I was going to ask if you had heard any more about resignations Rigby

Listening to the news this morning, it's very heartening the amount of real action, compared with fine words,that is being undertaken. I really think it will be a defining event at the micro level in terms of fire safety and high rise blocks and at the macro level in attitudes towards health and safety in general, listening to people and social housing tenants. I'm looking forward to hearing who the judge is going to be. And I'm still waiting for the leader and deputy leader of the council to resign.

GGMK2

Pogs

I think 'angry' you and I were discussing in relationship to the MPs started with the comment you made and I replied to "This is not a time for anger but sensible debate and comment" Thu 22-Jun-17 11:47:31.

The time line is easy to follow and I made that statement in my post of 11.47 which you have raised to another poster who instigated the use of the word 'angry' and you decided to persue my point " This is not a time for anger but sensible debate and comment".

At no time did I accuse any MP of being 'angry' I merely said what I said and you keep pushing for answers or responses from myself and I am not sure what you wish to achieve .

To be honest I would prefer to concentrate on the Grenfell Tower Fire to be honest.

Maizie d

" Well, why didn't she just say that, POGS, instead of waffling on about 'tests' etc.?

Both May and the MPs questioning her on the 'legality' point have been in Parliament to know the game. There will be a underlying motive for repeatedly pressing the point. And, of course, waffling on about 'tests' has nothing to do with the question asked."

Once again , because there are threads on threads about Grenfell Tower.

Theresa May did not ' waffle on' about tests. She had to reply to questions and that involved informing the House what was happening and she had to mention the point re the tests being carried out. The replies she gave re testing were most certainly ' to do with questions', stupid to think any other.

example replies of what you consider of 'waffling on':-

PM

" I will add to the answer I gave to the right hon. Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn), and I ask hon. Members to remember that a criminal investigation is taking place in relation to this matter. The testing of the cladding and of the materials used is being undertaken, and a statement will be made by the police and the fire service within the next 48 hours."
--
PM

"As I have said, the material is being tested. The results of those tests will be—[Interruption.] The information that the fire service and police are able to give publicly they will give; this is part of the criminal investigation. [Interruption.] It is. Hon. Members may shake their heads, but let me make this point: they want to ensure that if there are criminal charges to be brought, those charges are indeed brought, and we must therefore ensure that we give the police the opportunity to do the job that they undertake and that nothing we do prejudices that."

If Theresa May appeared evasive there was a reason for it and I remain bemused as to why there is no understanding of the point she was making that nothing said in Parliament should prejudice any possible prosecution/legal procedures.