Why so much surprise over Corbyn calling for Labour to Abstain?

It's my pleasure.

whitewave

I am not sure what you mean by 'nice try'.

I take it it was not a compliment.

pogs full marks for trying!!

DJ

Nothing weird . I did start the thread but not with the personal comments towards fellow fellow posters.

Back to Corbyn

Corbyn could have told his MP's to 'Vote in Favour' of the Ammemdment calling to ' Stay in the Single Market' and not used the 3 Line Whip telling them to ' Abstain'. It told a story to some but obviously not to all.

Corbyn used the 3 Line Whip on the Article 50 Bill instructing his MP's to 'Vote in Favour'. He did not sack his Shadow Cabinet Members and back bench MP's who rebelled against him but sent them formal ' Written Warnings'.

Corbyn gave his MP's and Shadow Cabinet a 'Free Vote' on Syria. I am reminded of his interview with John Snow where he said this when giving the reason why he would not use the 3 Whip.

" Is it the end of the world in a 'democracy' when people speak openly and honestly about what they believe in?. I think it's a strength"

"What I did after the election was what I promised to do, reach out to appoint a Shadow Cabinet that was broadly a diversity of opinion and hope members would make a contribution"

"Perhaps we get down the road much better by encouragement and persuasion NOT 'INSTRUCTION"

Well after the Syria Vote it appears ' INSTRUCTION ' became the name of the game and the 'We are a Broad Church' mantra of Labour is somewhat shattered.

Jeremy Corbyn on Syria airstrikes, free vote and Labour divisions - YouTube

How weird.
You started the thread, POGS.

'He is a man who for years rebelled on the Back Benches but will not afford the same to others it would appear.'

That's not true. He hasn't taken the whip away from anyone. They are allowed to rebel on the back benches - just not on the front.
It's called collective responsibility.

DJ

Then don't start it !

Hells bells this has become personal since you asked me on Sunday " Have you ever seen anything positive in anything Corbyn has said, POGS? "

What a fool I was to answer.

But if you don't answer you get followed round and asked the same question over and over for two years at least!
Even if you've said you don't see the relevance or don't understand the first time!

I don't understand why you have to post the way you do. Why can't you just do normal posts like anyone else?
what, links you mean?
Then demand if people have read them?

Sorry, but everyone posts in their own style and GN is all the better for the variety of posters and styles.

If you don't want to read certain posts then don't - and it's not necessary to send round robins telling people not to read certain posts. Everyone can make their own minds up surely if they wish to respond or not.

Oh for goodness sake why on earth are you so confrontational all the time?

Sorry, whitewave, I've just realised you used that phrase.
On the other hand, perhaps POGS will get the message.

POGS, I read half of one of your posts and lose the will to live.
I don't understand why you have to post the way you do. Why can't you just do normal posts like anyone else?

Oh for goodness sake why on earth are you so confrontational all the time?

My request was meant entirely without malice. I started to try to make sense of it all but began to lose the will to live, and thought I would ask you just to focus in a few words exactly what you were arguing. But you have chosen to assume that I am being personal. Of course I'm not.

But I tell you what, let's forget it, as I should have done about 500 posts ago.

devongirl

Shame you have no contribution but to try and belittle. Why bother?

Oh for the days Gransnet was argumentative but capable of debate / discussion.

WW

"So pogs after all your posts, I wonder if it is possible for you to summarise your thoughts in one or two sentences"

' No '.

If something needs defining it requires evidence. Actually something you and others ask for on occasion. Irony me thinks.

Do you always stick to 1 or 2 sentences, other than when you are being personal or at best dictatorial? I think not.

Perhaps now you have just a precedence for how you must post or you could look a tad hypocritical.

Actually norose, your post says "I've said it before & I will say it again"!

POGS
I see that the new directive is going to be 3 days for a Lorry driver to work in another country and then receive the rate for that country.
As some of you don't believe that Eastern European Lorry drivers are being screwed, why is the eu bring in a law to change the practice?

So pogs after all your posts, I wonder if it is possible for you to summarise your thoughts in one or two sentences, as I end up not being able to see the wood for the trees.

Durhamjen

Your prerogative.

You can't be assed you say. Hmm, I expect that sort of comment when your view is challenged .

Oddly my posts re the Posted Workers Directive were 'agreeing' with Corbyn/Labour in answer to your question do I ever agree with him .

Facts are facts and whilst it is unpalatable for some to accept the original Posted Workers Directive prior to the 2016 Revision did not guarantee minimum pay to Posted Workers. The Revision is still not conclusively passed in the EU by the way , I hope it get's 'signed off' soon.

example.

www.euractiv.com/section/economy-jobs/news/macrons-proposals-wreak-havoc-on-posted-worker-negotiations/

"Tough French proposals have derailed talks on controversial EU labour mobility rules and dashed Malta’s hopes of brokering a compromise deal by the end of this month.

Employment ministers were supposed to sign off on their proposal for the so-called posted worker directive at a meeting on Thursday (15 June) in Luxembourg. But they ended up pushing an agreement until autumn at the earliest."
----

The Chuka Umuna Amendment and Corbyns position is I suppose self evident.

I will say if you don't want an answer 'don't ask a question' . If you do ask a question or make a statement be prepared for a response to give detailed information , or as you call it 'screed'.

Wow Devongirl. That's my first post for several days , did not know I need to ask for permission. What are you Corbyn supporters like comes across as very very dictatorial, my point has been proven ?

OK we've heard you now norose, I think that message had already come across. It is a great pity that we don't have a cross-party negotiating team to avoid these 'he said/she said' exchanges.

Honourable??really, Clever yes,opportunistic yes,devious yes, dangerous very & I am not a great lover of TM . I've said it before & I will say it again Pied Piper & it will all end badly !!

POGS, we will always disagree on Corbyn, as I find him completely honourable. Therefore there is no point in ever answering any of your screeds about the Labour party.

The rest of it, I really can't be arsed to read again.

WW

Yes it is the same as the Conservative stance I have already said so in this thread and others:-.

" Yes, obviously negotiations are taking place but the only way this 'Mexican Stand Off' is for the EU to drop the 4 Freedoms/Pillars is none negotiable stance or the UK to drop the 'We will end the free movement of people' stance. The latter stated by both the Labour and Conservative Parties."

That brings us back to the point that Corbyn did not ask his MP's to vote in favour of Chuka Umunas Queens Speech Amendment calling for ' The UK should remain in the single market and in the customs union.'.

Corbyn and most of his MP's know it was all rhetoric and not a practical Amendment.

However it told the Labour voter to rethink the idea that Labour can do as it spins, keeps saying, we will leave the European Union but have access to the Single Market because Labour say it will and can negotiate it . It is disingenuous of ANY party to say that.

I still think there will be Labour voters who voted tactically who should have stuck to the principle of voting for the Lib Dems or Green who at least have been honest in their not wanting to leave the EU full stop.

pogs don't forget that this is the Tory position as well according to Davis, it is simply phrased in a different way.

I think in any case things are moving so quickly that we are in danger of missing what is really happening if we obsess about about one particular point.

I can keep going around in circles with you if that is what you want but it does seem a bit pointless.

WW

"Blimey pogs we answer your question and then you ask it again. I've given up ".

You haven't answered the question because the Labour position is double headed.

Yes the Labour Position is as you pointed out " Leaving the EU as we all know means leaving the single market and all that entails as well as the customs union."

The Labour position also states 'We will end free movement of people"

BUT

Labour rhetoric gives the impression to the voter by the likes of Starmer and so many Labour MP's from Jack Dromey, Barry Gardiner, Shells Creasy Labour wants 'Full access to the Single Market".

It cannot say what 'it wants' it is disingenuous. Everybody wants Full Access to the Single Market and Customs Union but the EU have said 'No Cherry Picking, ' Non Negotiable' so far.

So how can Labour keep saying that is what Labour would negotiate . A Labour negotiating team of Starmer, Thornberry and Gardiner. It is a persistent round of bull s--t and whenever asked 'How' there can be no answer as it is all spin.

UK employment law covers ALL workers regardless of their origin in the EU.

So minimum wage will apply