The Truth Behind Traingate

Voxpox is a source of knowledge !

It didn't appear as google to me because I don't use google.
However, I don't see using the internet as a source of knowledge to be pejorative. That's what learning is all about, using your resources.
Actually, I found that link interesting, too, trisher, thank you.

Trisher, I find those who know everything are boring. My knowledge comes from listening to people of different generations over many years, from reading and from many,many speeches and conversations from far left, left and centre politicians.

I'm pleased you respect my grandfather's knowledge Annie but I never think it is a good idea to completely accept you know everything about something, one thing I have found in researching history is that the most surprising things can be found and what you have been told happened historically is not necessarily true.
I liked the website I posted because it detailed many things I didn't know and gave another viewpoint.

petra Many people in former communist countries regret the passing of the regime because of the inequalities they now see. One of the comments was "Everyone had a home, we didn't have people sleeping on the streets."

How long ago was that petra?

what interests GG is bitching me , rather like having a stalker really ?

I met many in Bulgaria when I lived there. One conversation went something like this.
"But we have a job for life"
" Doing what? you build crap products that nobody outside the ussr wants to buy and most of you couldn't afford to buy them anyway"
"But we had a job for life"
"But that's not sustainable"
I lost them at sustainable.

What grandfathers thought, Communist or otherwise, is hardly interesting or relevant to the forum.
Nationalising railways did not work well last time, and they were privatised to improve.
GG says it is not worth talking to others who have different views, to herself and few others.I disagree strongly as I enjoy reading all posts and looking at other views.Sometimes they influence me, often not, but to say
Don't bother to look at them is narrow minded.

I don't think we have to respect anyone just because they have lived for many years Jen. It's rather like attributing wisdom to old age. If they weren't wise in the first place old age is unlikely to make them more so. Equally just because your social life revolves round one particular party, if you have known little about the politics behind it for all your life you are unlikely to increase that knowledge with age. I do not believe AB should be respected for her knowledge of the Labour movement and party - she has never, to me, shown she has much.

It's rather like the people who joined the Young Farmers - it didn't mean they could all run a farm; many of them never went near one and it seems to me that AB doesn't get very close to any left of centre views. I do not respect her views and will not until she offers something that I actually could. Just meeting the great names of the party doesn't do it for me.

I respect Trisher knowledge of her grandfather, never said differently , I don't have faith in googling after your link that Corbyn was deeply involved in the N.I peace talks

Doesn't change my views on communist run countries anyway

One of the most interesting things my grandad believed was that nationalisation would never succeed because the banks were not nationalised at the same time as other industries. You can imagine dj how I felt when the banks crashed and we had to bail them out!

Just as trisher's knowledge of communism comes from her grandfather.
To my knowledge I've never met a communist.

We're supposed to respect your knowledge, but you won't respect trisher's?

My knowledge of the party comes from experience and the knowledge of those who went before me, not from googling

For Annie who has claimed to know much about the Labour Party
But, unlike on the mainland of Europe, the British socialist movement followed the creation of trade unions and was to some extent inspired by it. The Social Democratic Federation (SDF - first called the Democratic Federation), which was a Marxist group, was the first body to survive for an extended period. But it was a largely propagandist sect and was not close to trade unions. The SDF changed its name to the Social Democratic Party in 1908 but this did not make it in the least bit like the group of the same name form the 1980s! This SDP was affiliated to the Labour Party and changed its name to the British Socialist Party in 1911. It mostly retained its Marxist character but a chauvinist trend kept caused difficulties. The BSP kept its affiliation but the rightists left in 1914 and became rather like the later day SDP!The Socialist Labour Party (SLP), which was especially in strong in Scotland, Derby and Manchester was a Marxist group with very strong links to the working class, especially the new shop stewards movement.

Groups like the Clarion Cycling Club and other social and cultural movements became very popular.The Independent Labour Party (ILP) was a socialist trend within the Labour Party, founded long before it and affiliated to it for most of the modern period except for a short period in the 1930s, when it moved sharply to the left.Socialist organisations were mostly against the war. Opposition to the war grew, although the official union movement and the Labour Party continued to support the war. Munitions workers in Coventry led the city into mass strike action. The government `bombed the city with propaganda leaflets dropped by the newly formed Royal Air Corps. Sheffield was closed down in a localised general strike.

Glasgow saw a massive mobilisation of working people over this period. From a major rent strike, led by women, in 1915, to shipyard and engineering strikes. In 1919, the city was on the verge of revolution and the army was even mobilised. In 1918, the Labour Party formally declared itself a socialist party. It opened itself to individual membership but retained its federal character with unions and socialist societies being able to affiliate. The TUC was now 6.5 million strong and the period 1919-21 saw a high peak of struggle.

To be found at
www.grahamstevenson.me.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=690&Itemid=52

Your usual sensible and well reasoned posts Eloethan. I really appreciated both the summary of the train situation and of the posters remarks.

However, just as you expected, this thread goes on in exactly the same way so other than thanking you I have found that a large number of the people on here do not discuss, do not base their views on facts and are not really worth trying to talk to.

There are definitely better things to do on a Bank Holiday weekend.

How did labour split from the communists when the British communist party was formed 20 years later?

Do you support strong union rights, education for all and public ownership, Annie?

I don't know. It was labour that split.
The social democratic foundation was there before the Labour party. Keir Hardie was a member of it.

They believed in a land value tax as opposed to a tax on work. Richard Murphy does too, and as a Quaker you can't accuse him of being a communist.

then why a separate Party?

What I am saying is what trisher says.
Both groups support the same things, or should do; strong union rights, public ownership and education for all.
Are you saying you don't support those?

Keir Hardie when he was in Scotland was a strong supporter of the group that started as social democrats. It included William Morris, Carpenter and Henry Hyndman.
I'm sure you've heard of them.

Then why did they form their own party, why not stay with or join the Labour Party?

so anyone supporting Corbyn does have communist beliefs is what you are claiming DJ?

dj thanks for that. My grandfather was a strong union man and his communism sprang from those roots. He believed passionately in public ownership, education and what are now known as civil rights. He suffered much for his beliefs when work was handed out .

Corbyn is certaintly use to traveling by train.

Nothing to do with anybody knowing anybody in political circles D.G. Most people know that the trains tend to be very crowded and that if you want sit together or even get a seat, you do have to pre-book. Of course you shouldn't have to, but in reality you do, and I think some of us find it incredible that JC and his party seemed unaware of that fact- or?!!!!

Trisher you have reached rock bottom but still drilling