Sovereignty and 'take back control'

I did personally did not before any jumps down my throat

Blimey I have even baffled myself with that gobbledegook !

I meant I voted REMAIN !!!

Some might say that those who decided on the referendum should have thought it through before holding it and not relied on making it up as they go along.

Everyone's just making it up as they go along and France, Germany and the other biggest players just want to hit us with the pointiest stick they can get their grubby little hands on.

I still don't get why we have to pay them money. Why? What for? We have paid in a massive amount more than we have ever had out and even the money we have had we couldn't spend how we wanted to.

The Independent is reporting that the only people in the audience for the speech will be British government ministers, and a few dignitaries. No one from EU Commission

As a tax payer I would rather she made the speech in the UK if it is being addressed to us, and not going off on some jolly to Italy.

I must admit it is beginning to look ridiculous

But as it had never happened before there was nothing to go by was there maryeliza54?

It's fine looking at it all in hindsight but we are where we are.

gilly did you not read the explanation about our contractual obligation?

Yes I did whitewave although I confess to not quite understanding it.

Surely if we were one of the countries who had put in the least money, whilst getting the most out, then I can see that some of the big players would want "their" money back. But we have put masses more in than we have ever had out. Unless the "contract" was a no exit contract (in which case who the hell ever agreed to that?) meaning that no matter what, we cannot leave without paying them a kings ransom (plus some).

Part of Macrons speech in New York.
"We will have to change treaties, but we need these new ambitions, because for my generation there is just one alternative
"Do we want the dismantling of Europe, and it's an on going process. We discussed years and years of brexit and now it's all about brexit and now we have the tensions of Poland regarding overflow in Europe"
But in a few months or years you will have other countries suddenly raising and saying im no longer comfortable with this bureaucracy and with this europe without any vision but with a lot of constrains
At least we now have a major player standing up to the elite in Brussels telling them its not working

Sadly we are where we are but all the great brains in the cabinet who agreed the referendum might have just had a thought without too much effort on such issues as the Irish Boarder, Uk citizens in the EU, EU citizens here, need for transition these issues needed foresight which is the least our leaders owe us. I know we can't change how badly they've handled it all but I fail to see why so many people are so forgiving of their stupidly, lack of foresight and utter ignorance. But of course, the referendum was only held so that the Tories could get UKIP votes. Like the last election it was for party advantage and nothing to do with what was best for us. And I don't actually care whether or not Labour would have done any better - that's hypothetical it was the Tories who got us into this situation and that's a fact

Really, maryeliza?
The way some people talk, you'd think it was all Corbyn's fault for not being in the right place at the right time, and taking a weekend off for his birthday.

We have paid in a massive amount more than we have ever had out and even the money we have had we couldn't spend how we wanted to.

Certainly part of the money retained by 'the EU' is spent on:

1) Setting up and running regulatory agencies (and, if we leave completely you will find out just how much we have to spend of 'our' money to replicate those agencies, as we will need to do if we continue to trade with the EU

2) Cost of EU administration. Which, can I remind you, has fewer civil servants than does the UK.

3)Cost of European Parliament, buildings, admin, secretariat, MEPs, MEPs pensions etc

4) Cost of the European Court of Justice, which arbitrates in trade disputes and matters of EU law (much of which the UK initiated)

5) I believe there is some aid given to poorer members of the EU to help them to grow their economies

6) Negotiation of trade deals for all the membership

That's off the top of my head. There is probably more.

I dissed the 'golf club' analogy yesterday, but, for heavens sake, if you join a club you don't expect to get your membership fee back in full, in cash, do you?

In return for the relatively modest amount retained in the EU (our contribution is less than 2% of GDP) we get free access to a massive market; 44% of our exports, worth many billions per year to the UK, are to the EU. And investment & jobs from industries who come here so that they can get barrier free entry into the EU market; like Nissan (the biggest shock for me on referendum night was Sunderland voting away the best thing that had happened to it for years)

Sorry if that wasn't enough for everyone....

But, you know..sovereignty

The longer the negotiations go on, the more it will cost us, too, surely.
City of London telling the government to get on with it, or else we will lose more jobs.

www.theguardian.com/business/2017/sep/21/city-official-quick-brexit-deal-avoid-exodus-jobs-catherine-mcguinness

Let's not forget the £114 mil a year lavished on the travelling circus, otherwise known as the European Parliament when they shuffle between Brussels and Strasbourg.

"Hogan told the Standard:

Clearly, [Johnson] is not directly involved in the negotiations on behalf of the British government with the EU. He certainly has made very strange statements that are completely contradictory, and completely at odds with his own government’s position as well as the possibility of being reasonable with the EU in finalising a deal.

So it strikes me that he is completely out of the loop in relation to the type of concrete proposals that are required and that are being considered by the UK government ...

Mr Johnson is behaving and acting and speaking strangely. It’s clear that his reputation is not good and he is a diminished figure in the government."

In his 4000 word article he never mentioned the Irish border.

You entirely fail to see the bigger picture, don't you, Petra? You just focus on something that in a budget as huge as the EU's is small change and somehow miss the massive economic benefits we have had from the EU.

Still, when the UK starts getting immeasurable poorer (as forecast by everyone except the Economists for Leave) I'm sure it will be all worthwhile.

immeasureably

MaizieD
£114 mil might sound like small change to you and the European elite but it could help the really poor of Europe.

I wonder how much we are forking out for all the Brexiters to take a totally unnecessary jolly to Italy.

And don't let's forget the £1,5 billion cash for votes the giving of which is a direct result of Brexit.

As well as the total loss to the economy to date. As well as the complete slowdown in growth. It is billions and billions

The really poor of Europe have benefitted enormously from the EU - this includes Cornwall, Wales and deprived cities in the U.K. I expect they'll follow BJ's advice in the future for this help by 'whistling for it'. But I bet the agricultural subsidies paid to amongst other deserving poor such as Charles, the Queen, James Dyson and the Duke of Westminster and several Conservative MPs will be unscathed.

The really poor of Europe have benefitted enormously from the EU
I'm not sure the Greeks would agree with you!

I'm talking about real poverty, particulaly in eastern europe. Those people would be more than happy with the 'poverty' you quote in Cornwall and wales.
I'm talking about people who don't have a proper home / running water/ electricity living 3. 1/2 hours by plane from London. All European citizens.

The complex example of Greece does not disprove that - overall the poor have benefitted. It's a really poor argument that tries to say an exception means a basic point is not true.

www.ft.com/content/ba1301c0-4c54-11e7-919a-1e14ce4af89b

Recent article from that left wing bible the FT on growth in central and Eastern Europe. It takes a long time for growth to be translated into such things as better housing and other aspects of infrastructure. £114m - how exactly would that help?