Let's not forget Brexit

Not amusing Lemons - I do not like being on the receiving end of your bitterness. There was a lovely gap where there was a lot more discussion of fact and opinion and a lot less personal attack. I am sorry that it has returned.

I think the 'don't count your chickens' would apply to the rest of that post.

Ken Clarke has accepted the party line Lemons nothing more. I see you are trying to save me yet again from committing heresy by telling me I must accept the mantra you live by. I don't believe in your system of belief where Brexit is concerned so I do not have to accept the Brextremists message however often you insist that people do.

.......and another mention of bitterness ! ?

your love of hyperbole sometimes gets the better of you GGM2
Heresy, mantras,cults.Amusing, but strange.

Most people have accepted that we are leaving the EU, and it is now all about our manner of leaving.I am not fussed one way or another about the manner, we just need to get the best deal that we can, and so do the EU.Compromise is the issue at hand, nothing more.

I've listened to the KC interview and I hear it just as GG and whitewave do.

The questions from JH are absolutely as GG reports, she's just stripped out some of the repetitious waffle.

I'm really not sure what it is that lemon is hearing that we are not.

lemongrove Ken Clarke may have accepted that we will be leaving the EU (because of the referendum vote) but he really doesn't seem convinced about the validity of a referendum in deciding anything as complex as EU membership.

He is working cross-party to force amendments which would block accepting a "no deal".

Let's hope the tide is turning against the folly of Brexit, or definitely against a hard Brexit.

That for the first time, Ken Clarke, a Remainer so staunch that he has been in danger of very high blood pressure, is calming down and accepting that Leaving the EU is happening, with no more talk of fighting it and second referendums et al.
That in itself, is surprising.

The best deal we had was being in the EU; what we're trying to do is an attempt to get something as close to that as possible, which is costing the country vast amounts of money at a time when austerity cuts are ruining many peoples lives. Have you actually listened to/spoken to people who work here and are from the EU of have partners from the EU that are uncertain about their future? Do you not care about these people? Or the people in Ireland or Scotland who have not accepted the result [given that they voted against it?]. Or the people in Wales who are only happy to go ahead with brexit as long as they do not suffer financially from it [because they hadn't realised how much finance they get from the EU when they voted]? What evidence do you have that 'most' people have accepted that we are leaving?

No, the tide is not turning ( against leaving EU) that is only wishful thinking.
What kind of Brexit we actually end up with is as yet unknown.Hard may not be the best, but a deal will no doubt be made with the EU no matter what hot air is discussed in the press.

I am not fussed one way or another about the manner

Just like a cult member. There will be people saying - I don't mind if the end of times comes when our guru says it will or if it comes the next time he says it will. Blind belief in what they have been told. Eventually though many people see through all the nonsense. Let's hope it isn't too late for us all.

I don’t expect to change your mind about anything Tegan2 just as your comments will not change my views.
What we have to do though, or should as mature adults, is to realise that we have had a legal referendum on the matter and that the Leave vote was the highest.
If, at the next GE Corbyn wins ( for example) you will not hear me moaning about it, worried though I may be, it will be all down to democracy.

More OTT comments GG ?

OECD latest UK economic survey is out and is saying a second referendum that reversed the leave vote would have a positive and significant impact on the UK economy which, it says, is on track to be crippled by its EU divorce.

An interesting point to consider is IF the referendum WAS legal. We are still under the rules of the EU which we have agreed to over the years. The rules for having a legal referendum are very clear - 75% of the electorate need to vote and the result needs to be a 60/40% split. As you are aware only 72% of the electorate voted so it failed at the first hurdle and 4% or a million votes is hardly a reasonable majority let alone a good one.
No other EU country has been so careless when holding a referendum - says a lot about Britain that this one is allowed to browbeat those who do not want it to happen.
Also - and I know this is a sore and controversial point - another very detailed analysis of the electorate has concluded that the level of education - particularly post 16/18 was the biggest contributory factor in the result.

And a legal referendum is still'not' binding, especially when it is becoming obvious that it will cripple the country financially. Which a lot of leave voters are beginning to realise. How on earth can this country accept a final deal that will leave everyone in it financially worse off, on the off chance that we 'might' [and might is the operative word] be better off in 20 years time.

As I understand it David Cameron, with the full backing of the H of C, promised that the referendum would be binding whatever the outcome. On that assumption, how can it now be only advisory? He also, again with the backing of parliament allowed 'first past the post'! which of course was foolish, but what's done is done, and can't be gone back on.

ww it says a lot about our inadequate politicians. No real leader would have contemplated such a referendum.

niggy there is no question that is was advisory.

It is just that the brextremists are a ting as if it was binding.

It went through parliament as advisory and was passed but suddenly became binding during the referendum.

how can that be if parliament hadn’t passed it as such.

I know - something I always thought was ridiculous when it was first reported - but then rarely referred to.

David Cameron promised a lot of things [so much so that I almost voted Conservative for the first time in my life [she says, shuddering at the thought]], most of which never came to pass...except for the referendum. I don't seem to remember lots of people, at the time saying they were voting for them because they wanted a referendum; it seemed very low on he list of peoples priorities. Until, that is, people like Banks and Murdoch with their huge wealth stepped in with their disgusting headlines and clever [but meaningless] soundbites. Had Johnson, on the toss of a coin, decided to be a remainer, this would never have happened; he is, undoubtedly very charismatic [in an odious sort of way]. Rumour has it that he only decided on' leave' to p**s Cameron off; may not be true but, from what of I've seen of Johnson it wouldn't surprise me.

I wonder if it could be challenged?

Niggly, Parliament sets the rules and they didn't make it binding. Believing what Cameron said is rather like believing what the Boris Bus said. Neither were true.

I want the government to release the legal advice they were given as that might make those who still believe the fairy tales understand that we don't actually need to be going though all this - it was a choice the government made.

I thought there was another legal case being brought whitewave. There was quite a bit about it for a while and then nothing. I hope it is being pursued.