When does banter become harassment?

Yep especially for a Tory.

Typical lemon - drinking two bottles at one go in the (subsidised) House Bar in the company of journalists and then being so drunk as to call one a slut - not a crime but shows appalling judgement- he should have gone home and drank which is what any sensible person with any real judgement does. I do - but I would only drink half a bottle.

Just because some of you think it’s fine to minimise all this doesn’t actually minimise it. Fallon has gone - doesn’t sound very minimalist to me. TM must be furious and now she’s having to find a replacement.

Did he jump or was he pushed?

DH ha just said that he thinks all this furore is doing women’s equality no good whatsoever. Men will have to tiptoe around female staff, watch every word and take such great care not to offend that it may mean an all male office seems like a good idea.

I found myself agreeing with what Allison Pearson said yesterday in the DT in her article on when “banter”( hate that word) becomes harassment
We should be saving our spleen for serious cases. (How those 1,400 girls who were raped during the Rotherham sex abuse scandal must look with contempt upon their soft southern sisters at Westminster.) On the other hand, I believe that young women have an absolute right to refuse to put up with an antediluvian culture which is anathema to the modern workplace. Parliament needs to put its house in order
An even more cynical thought of my own is that the likes of Fallon are being thrown to the lions to deflect attention from the Brexit debacle.
Now there’s another sobering thought. .

GranVee The problem is that many women who tried to complain about inapropriate remarks and behaviour, is that managers took no notice and were in many cases the perpetrators.

Such things were passed off as "just a bit of fun." The standard remark of bullies

Then there were hinted messages of don't complain "it might harm your career. " Which in essence means , "if you tell I am going to get you fired, demoted, or just have your life made hell."
If your manager took such complaints seriously you were very lucky. They were probably in the minority.

The reasons?
Can't be bothered to do the paperwork.
Worries that a manager might get found out and sacked,
Worries about the reputation of the company.

Some of us are old enough to remember the Profumo crisis. I remember it, but not understanding at the time what it was about. This from the Mirror today might jog a few memories about another the reasons for requiring the highest standards of behaviour in public office. www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/westminster-sex-scandal-not-touching-11447633#ICID=sharebar_facebook This could bring the government down if more accusations about those in positions of trust emerge.
One to watch? The jolly affable chap that provoked this remark (repeated on TV lately) “Boris is the life and soul of the party but he is not the man you want driving you home at the end of the evening”. Hmmm

I reckon poor old Theresa would be delighted if the government was brought down. She could walk off and leave all the moaners to deal with the unresolvable brexit debacle.

I can't think why she doesn't, after all she and DH are nearly of retirement age, well heeled and as far as we know without any family commitments. I would have thought a home in the Swiss Alps would have been just the ticket for these two avid walkers, leaving the Palace of Westminster to squabble, fight, and backstab to their hearts content.
I still miss not getting a wolf whistle, they made my day too! Mind you at my age it would be a forlorn hope anyway!!!

I agree with your Dh, nfk!

Goodness knows what Fallon has done ( to resign) but other MP’s ( of all political stripes) will be worrying now.

Me too kittylester!

Swanny

"We are all different thank goodness and, while there are certain guidelines to acceptable behaviour, there will always be those who want to push the boundaries and those who just don't understand what they are, because they are constantly changing."

Constantly changing indeed.

This feeds into my question 'is kissing on the cheek OK'. I was not being political I am making the point that , as with a lot of things, one poster will have a different reference point to another.

I watched various programme's yesterday such as Victoria Derbyshire , Newsnight and others and to be honest I felt saddened to realize that this a Pandora's box and will have so many consequences . On one side of the debate there is a glaringly obvious relativity to raising the point of sexual harassment, etc. but so sadly on the other side it was leading to a fear of even speaking to , touching a female ' under any circumstance.'

Some people say a man should not, has no need to touch a woman under any circumstance, if they do they are invading their space and it is sexual harassment. To those people therefore touching a knee, a hand, placing a hand on the back or shoulder and one would have thought most certainly kissing on the cheek would in their opinion amount to sexual harassment.

To my mind that is ridiculous. I think what is lost is ' context'. If you go on the principle physical contact ' under any circumstance' constitutes harassment then to be honest everybody will have at some time committed sexual harassment, if not then they are a saint. I am a very tactile person. I understand those who are tactile and can see the difference between being a tactile person and being a seedy pervert I wonder at times if others can to be honest.

Think what constitutes sexual harassment to some and then visualise scenarios that would constitute sexual harassment if there was no 'common sense' no ' context' permitted or understood. It is a minefield for men and to be honest I think this will have to in all fairness include female to male sexual harassment and they to must abide by the guidelines, what ever the hell they are.

Personally I think the silly season has collided with genuine need for raising the profile of the long standing issue of sexual predation.

DH ha just said that he thinks all this furore is doing women’s equality no good whatsoever. Men will have to tiptoe around female staff, watch every word and take such great care not to offend that it may mean an all male office seems like a good idea.

Your dh’s views sum up exactly what is wrong with some men’s behaviour in the work place. Tell him that if men just behaved in a respectful adult manner they wouldn’t need to tiptoe around and watch every word because real grown up men know how to behave properly with women. You can also tell him good luck with all male offices - what will they do? Sit and watch porn all day and lean out of the window wold whistling?He clearly knows nothing about female equality.

To those people therefore touching a knee, a hand, placing a hand on the back or shoulder and one would have thought most certainly kissing on the cheek would in their opinion amount to sexual harassment.

Are you talking about women touching men? About men touching men? Or is it only when men touch women that this is "acceptable" behaviour?

"But the problem with the current generation of young women is that they have somehow got it into their heads that they don’t have to stick up for themselves, or take responsibility for their own safety. Feminism has taught them that they are entitled to equality and respect, even if they have done nothing to earn it. "

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5037545/SARAH-VINE-hysterical-Westminster-witch-hunt.html

Do you agree with Sarah Vine?
What should women have to do to earn equality and respect, other than be living human beings?

Is drinking red wine a crime now?

Newsflash to lemongrove - Drinking so much red wine that you become over-intoxicated and are a nuisance to people around you, can be a crime.

Far North

In answer to your question .

My post stated ' Some people say a man should not, has no need to touch a woman under any circumstance, if they do they are invading their space and it is sexual harassment.'

I also said ' It is a minefield for men and to be honest I think this will have to in all fairness include female to male sexual harassment and they to must abide by the guidelines, what ever the hell they are. '

Hope that answers your question.

It depends on the situation. If it's a greeting amongst colleagues/friends then a kiss on the cheek isn't a problem. I wouldn't be OK if a total stranger came up to me in the street and did it. I've done the cheek/air kissing thing with both men and women. I've also done the more formal handshaking. It depended on the situation.

When DH opens the door for women he does the arm thing where he raises his arm behind the woman. It's not sexual or a come on. It's just a gesture. It's not the same as when someone uses his/her power to make someone feel obliged to tolerate behaviour they don't like.

"Not every women is bothered about being found attractive for one thing but even if a compliment is welcome, for some women they might prefer a different form of delivery. The idea of it making someone’s day is risible" Why is it risible? A compliment can raise the spirits and create a pleasant memory.

I compliment people all the time. Recently I've told a lady in a café how nice her outfit was and how much the colour suited her and another on her perfume because it was really lovely. Both ladies were happy to receive the compliment. The outfit lady said that she had to shop alone and was never sure if she chose the right thing. So my compliment was not only nice to receive but reinforced her confidence. What's wrong with that?

Nothing wrong with that, vq.
The ladies might have been less pleased if you'd shouted your compliments at them in the street, though.

They kiss each other on the cheek all the time on the continent even complete strangers, often three times, and no one seems to be the least put out or offended, so why would we here. I know that we do tend to be reserved as a nation, but a kiss on the cheek when greeting a friend or an acquaintance, what can be wrong with that?!

I once worked in a male prison. Once, a mixed race inmate said to me: 'have you got any black in you, miss?' 'No', I replied.

'Would you like some?' he said.

There were several people present, including other members of staff, & I must confess we all fell about laughing. I think one of the PO's then told him that was quite enough. I should probably have had him 'nicked' - but he was such an affable fellow, everyone liked him, & he never over stepped the mark again.

Cheers! FarNorth......I never knew that.

Unfortunately as in every situation, there is always the person who chooses to be offended and make an issue where none was meant, or need exist. Just saying.....