When does banter become harassment?

Vange, yes, very amusing.
You were in a position of power over him so there was very little threat to you.
I'm sure you can imagine the same remark being much less funny, in another situation.
(Or maybe you can't.)

Vange an interesting example - because of course if you were an employee and he was a prisoner you were the one in a powerful position. Some might say "disrespectful" or "cheeky" but that's another story.
There is nothing difficult really about treating all your colleagues with respect and not to treat one gender differently to another. Most women manage it.

It was quite funny though.

Most men are quite nice really and women can mostly deal with the ones who cross the line without making a song and dance about it. We should be worrying about the women who have been seriously sexually abused not the ones who have had their knee touched. We are in danger of diverting attention from those people (not just women)

A poster repeats this comment from her husband:

"Men will have to tiptoe around female staff, watch every word and take such great care not to offend that it may mean an all male office seems like a good idea."

What a sense of entitlement to power that remark embodies. To even imagine, with what appears to be approval, a society in which an all-male workspace would be welcomed brings to mind the sort of mentality found in Saudi Arabia. I, and perhaps most women, realise that they have not yet achieved equality but I didn't realise just how quickly men can revert to these sorts of implied threats.

My heart bleeding for the hypothetically tiptoe-ing men.
It's easy. 1. Don't behave like a total d**k. 2. If you don't know what kind of personal remarks are acceptable, confine yourself to giving feedback about someone's work 3. The only kind of physical contact that is appropriate in the workplace is the shaking of hands. 4. If you don't know what kind of humour is offensive, do not try to entertain with your inept attempts at wit (this includes NOT sharing online jokes of any kind with colleagues 5. If on a business trip or at a conference with a female (or male if that is your preference) colleague, remember that it should not be treated as an opportunity to get laid 6. If you don't really trust yourself around women (or young men) when you've been drinking, give up the consumption of alcohol in the presence of the relevant sex. 7 Don't whinge. This is what being a fully fledged adult feels like. And finally - if this feels impossible for some reason, go and get help with your drinking, your impulse control or your attitude to your fellow human beings.

NfkDumpling 09.16

I am not one to PM so I am content to say my piece to you in full view.

Having read a comment from a poster who made personal comments about your husband , I think a line has been overstepped .

I would like to say I totally understand the point he was making.

Well - I begin to believe I live in a parallel universe to some of my own generation given many of the posts here that make no sense to me at all.
The female journalist whose comments about MF touching her knee several times during/after a dinner session in which lots of alcohol was consumed by those present, certainly didn't see it as sexual harassment. I've little time for her, I wonder what's in it for her to be the centre of this little storm - oh yes, that would be the limelight wouldn't it. I don't see what happened as sexual harassment either. She and MF knew each other well, had enjoyed a pleasant evening with others, drunk a fair amount and he tried his luck. She rebuffed him, he tried again, she told him she'd smack him if he tried again, he desisted. It seems fairly obvious that this incident isn't what led MF to resign. He said himself there's more to come.
As for accusing young women, along with those of us here who share a view about what constitutes assault or sexual harassment of being snowflakes - I feel I'm back in the 50's again. The majority of men and women understand all to well where the line is and don't cross it. My family and friends are a group who show physical affection easily and frequently. That doesn't mean I'd go round hugging men or women I work with and I'm certain our younger family members don't either.
Respect is dignity - what happened to that. I never appr4eciated either being wolf whistled at, having my bottom pinched, or having innuendo comments sent my way at work. I loathed braving the engineering works when as a young secretary, Id have to go through there to make a tray of tea or coffee for the bosses. It was disgusting and degrading to be subjected to the comments, shouts and jeering. I had no intention of "giving as good as I got". I just don't behave like that and had / have no intention of doing so.
If this makes me some kind of snowflake prude, that's fine by me.

If people don’t want comments made about what their DH says then don’t post what he said - tell him to join GN and fight his own corner.

And did he actually say that or did the poster say he said it because it’s what she thinks but wanted to shelter behind saying it was what he said? Who knows? Who even cares? But don’t think you can post unacceptable comments with impunity because it’s not what you think but what you DH thinks.

Another little merry tale that springs to mind. Someone I know has worked with the car industry for many years, providing them with contract workers. When she started out, in the sector about 20 years ago, if a woman visitor was spotted on the shop floor, all the men used to tap on something - metal against metal - to make a racket. Times have moved on now, and she has made headway in recruiting women to do these jobs so that the shop floor is no longer a single sex (and single ethnicity) environment.

I didn't see any personal comments about anyone's husband.
I did see comments about someone's husband's opinion, as reported to us by the someone.
Are posters to tiptoe around the reported comments of a GNer's husband?

FarNorth ????

I'm not offended by Eloethan's response, but thank you Pogs.

Perhaps I worded it clumsily. I worked with my to be DH for some years before we started going out together and he always treated male and female alike and had a reputation for fairness. He is also very strongly in favour of equality and encouraged his staff to do better whatever their gender. Having worked in offices all his career and knowing the way some men think, he was merely stating what he thought the position might be in some organisations. He feared real equality may be put back.

I myself worked in a gravel pit office for many years and have to agree. The bosses there really would have preferred male office staff, but couldn't get any. So there was one secretary and us two job sharing typist/clerks. We were unofficially segregated, mixing only with the manager and the sales reps. The men who occasionally came in from the works in summer in nothing but small shorts, big boots and tattoos were always very, very polite around us women, even apologizing for saying bloody. We stayed out of their domain. We in turn were expected to be smartly and decently turned out. It was in stark contrast to DH's insurance office where the management was 'forward thinking' and had little control over what was worn or the flirting which went on. See through tops and short skirts abounded and sometimes little work was done (once, as a fairly newly wed we were in Marks looking at bras for me and on choosing a pretty lacy one he told me to put it back. Soandso - who he didn't like much - had one the same!) Things are much better these days and I would hate to go back to either type of office.

I think Eloethan hit the nail very directly on the head. The comment made by the husband just reflected the problems of entitlement.

I started reading this thread and, rather like Iam wondered what world I had strayed into where my own generation were still happy to be judged in the workplace - or on the street - by a man's view of their looks and sexuality. I am horrified to be honest.

Why is there any need whatsoever for a sexual or even sexually related comment on personal appearance in the workplace? Why is there any need to touch people in the workplace? That is not what you are there for.

May I put a males view. My first week at work in a large engineering work as an apprentice was an eye open & shock for me. As part of my induction the females in the dept greased my privates in public, whilst the older men roared them on. I heard more dirty stories from the females than the males in those early years. No complaints would have been listened too by Management. I learnt we all have animal instincts before I was 21.

Andrea Leason has said MF told her when she said her hands were cold that he knew where she could warm them up.
" In your dreams" would have been my reply and all forgotten, this was sometime between 2010 and 2012.
I really couldn't remember any casual remark after all those years but I was then a mature woman who knew how to deal with smut.
Perhaps she was young and innocent.

But why should women be the ones who have to learn to deal with smut? Why shouldn't men be the ones to learn to stop dishing it out?

It's not just men who look and appreciate the opposite sex. Don't you ever look at a man and think "Wow"? I certainly appreciated my colleague's frame when he was so muscular. It wasn't sexual and I wasn't coming on to him. I simply thought he looked amazing and understood how hard he worked to stay that way. What about film stars? A lot of them rely on physical attraction as well as their acting ability. Let's be honest Arnie isn't the worlds best actor but his movies are fun and his muscles are lovely. The same goes for Stallone.

Surely it's human nature to appreciate aspects of other people. I remember when Debbie Harry sang Denis Denis whilst wearing a man's red shirt with a belt. I thought that she was the most beautiful and sexiest thing I'd ever seen. No I didn't want to have sex with her but I could appreciate her beauty.

My OP asked the question when does banter become harassment and I made a point of saying that harassment and sexual abuse is always wrong but I think it's got to the point where people (esp. men) have got to the point that they daren't say or do anything for fear that it might be misconstrued. There is a difference between abuse and flirtatious fun behaviour or a genuine compliment.

Good post vampire.

There seem to be lots of people on here who lead very worthy lives

James I am sorry you experienced that but I would think the company would be taken to tribunal if that happened nowadays. I would certainly hope so.

For me, being 21 was nearly 50 years ago. I don't, to be honest, see the relevance of something that happened half a century ago. Half a century before that - 1920 in my case, men over 21 had just got the vote, as had women over 30. If some old women like me now had chuntered on about this to the 21 year old me I would, to say the least, not have been interested and thought that 1970 was my time and I was going to define it - not old people.

Surely we want life to improve for everyone not those who are in a position of power - as, at that point, those women were.

It is all about abuse of power.

No one will ever stop you thinking 'wow' VQ - except by ensuring you are too busy to have time to Watching a film and the workplace - how do they compare?

For those who do not understand how their 'banter' might be more than that it is difficult. It is also difficult for any company to set rules on this. A company could say certain words may not be used, etc., but the simple rule about so called banter is that if it is about sex, race, age, disability, sexual orientation or religious/belief - the employer may have a problem so they need to make it clear that it is not acceptable or their employees may cost them large sums of money.

I don't like the word banter, simply because it can mean all things to all men/women but it seems it is often teasing. The rule with teasing is if both agree it is okay, if not and it continues, it is bullying.

If you fancy someone and want to get to know them better do it away from work. .

I see we have descended to the personal comments again.

There are a lot of people here who respect or respected their colleagues kittylister and expect that respect to be returned.
.

I have made it clear several times that I'm not talking about any form of abuse. I am talking about simple everyday relationships.

The colleague with the muscles and I respected each other but we could still have a laugh during breaks.

ggmk2 - were you referring to my post? If so, I hope you have read the rest of the thread. I also hope you are not insinuating that I disrespect people.

Having a bit of light hearted chit chat (or banter) among respected friends and colleagues isn't the same as serious sexual assault/abuse or rape! Nor is a friendly hug, arm round the shoulder etc. I do that to all my friends and no one has threatened to punch me...yet!

We risk trivialising real assault by making a fuss about minor incidents that should just be stopped ala Ms Hartley Brewer.

Men shouldn't do it, some will try it on and should be put firmly in their place while we concentrate on the real victims.

ggmk2 - were you referring to my post?

If you mean where I say kittylister in my reply I would say the chances are - yes.