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Paradise Papers

(268 Posts)
grannyactivist Mon 06-Nov-17 00:18:37

Thanks to a leak of financial documents I think we shall see many chickens coming home to roost in the near future. One of the first to be held to account is Lord Ashcroft. His spokesman, Alan Kilkenny, said the peer had never engaged in tax evasion, abusive tax avoidance or tax avoidance using artificial structures, and “any suggestion or implication that he has will be vigorously challenged”.
However, if you or I (assuming that you are not a multi millionaire politician) dealt with our tax affairs in the same way as he seems to have done I suspect we might be investigated by HMRI.

whitewave Mon 06-Nov-17 13:50:19

If someone is putting their money/assets off shore, we as ordinary punters have no way of knowing whether what the wealthy person is doing is legal or not. We only have their word for it. Only HMRC will know for sure.

Nonnie Mon 06-Nov-17 13:50:34

Whitewave "Ignorance is no defence in law" but the point is surely that no one is suggesting that anyone has broken the law?

The point I thought I had made clearly, but obviously not since it has been made again by others, is that this keeps cropping up and it is the law which needs to be changed. I also made the point that I think it needs international cooperation which is probably why it hasn't happened.

whitewave Mon 06-Nov-17 13:51:53

If what you are doing is morally wrong, it is absolutely no defence to say it is legal.

whitewave Mon 06-Nov-17 13:53:22

Ignorance is what is being touted by those being questioned about the morality of their actions.

whitewave Mon 06-Nov-17 13:54:48

Of course the law needs changing, but just watch the wealthy media, and wealthy powerful screech and argue when such changes are suggested.

MaizieD Mon 06-Nov-17 13:55:00

"It's only not illegal because those who do it have greater sway over what is allowed and what isn't."

Exactly And they have a greater sway because they use their money to gain access to decision makers. Direct personal access in a way that the ordinary citizen cannot. It makes a mockery of democracy.

gillybob Mon 06-Nov-17 13:57:16

Most of us don't have the choice of whether we choose to pay our taxes or not. I agree with Nandalot the queen does not need to know every little minor detail about her various investments but should make it clear that they are all to be above board and ethical. Part of me puzzles why an incredibly rich and privileged woman in her 90's needs to squirrel money away in dodgy investments. It's not as though her grandchildren are going to need it for a deposit on their starter home is it?

whitewave Mon 06-Nov-17 14:04:04

The sanctions and money laundering bill currently under consideration must all tie into this as well.

jura2 Mon 06-Nov-17 14:34:13

and as said above, this is what the EU is doing - and probably the main reason behind Brexit sad

whitewave Mon 06-Nov-17 15:05:55

Certainly if you look at those who supported Brexit and funded the Brexit camp, all seem to be implicated in dodgy financial dealings or major tax avoidance.

Smithy Mon 06-Nov-17 15:13:42

I'm with Gillybob and Whitew on these matters. Anyway I have no time for the privileged class in their ivory towers they must laugh up their sleeves at these mere peasants going to food banks etc. But yes the law SHOULD be changed to tighten up all the so called legal loopholes.

whitewave Mon 06-Nov-17 15:17:34

Just watching a bod from the Cayman Islands explaining away the reasons for putting your money off shore grin

Well if you believe that you will believe anything!!

maryeliza54 Mon 06-Nov-17 15:26:44

A really decent society is one that goes beyond behaving legally - it behaves ethically. ER and her supporters can't have it both ways - we are told what a role model she is, how she contributes to the very cohesion and moral fabric of our society. In that case, she should be setting the example to those of her subjects who think that the letter of the law is all that matters. I also want to reiterate the point I made earlier about the problem of offshore trusts being about much much more than tax avoidance - participating in these trusts means participating and implicitly condoning a whole range of behaviours that result from money laundering - ER should be ashamed of herself for being complicit in this.

nigglynellie Mon 06-Nov-17 16:22:03

I think perhaps we should all be scrutinising exactly where our pension income is coming from, state and private. Not many people would know precisely where the money we invest ends up, even the most vigilant of us, as where it starts, i.e., the bank, building society Insurance, often isn't where it ends. So castigating th Queen is, I think, very unfair.

nigglynellie Mon 06-Nov-17 16:25:49

'the' Queen. She's almost certainly not personally complicit in anything, and it's very wrong of people to say that she is. Where's your proof?!

lemongrove Mon 06-Nov-17 16:31:55

I would be very surprised if the Queen knew anything about her invested funds, there will be various bods looking after her private finances.

lemongrove Mon 06-Nov-17 16:35:24

That’s quite an allegation whitewave saying ‘Certainly if you look at those who supported Brexit and funded the Brexit camp all seem to be implicated in dodgy financial dealings or major tax avoidance’ ! Do you have private information on all of them?

Nonnie Mon 06-Nov-17 16:41:45

Well said nellie. I suspect if any of us looked carefully at the details of where our pensions come from we would be just as 'complicit' as HRH! Yes, I include those on public sector pensions they are quite possibly invested in exactly the same way as the programme said of the well-healed and well known!

I think maybe that should be the end of this discussion.

Cindersdad Mon 06-Nov-17 16:54:03

Just shows what money can buy, most of us on meager income cannot take advantage of such facilities. As for Brexit I cannot see what financial advantage anyone could have from the leaving the EU. Even the Brexiteers struggle to explain how we or they could be better off.

May be the Russians want to wreck us and/or the EU.

whitewave Mon 06-Nov-17 17:15:03

So 71% of the funding came from the 5 wealthiest individuals including Banks who gave over £8million, by far the biggest donor.

We know that Banks is complicit in tax avoidance. We know that he has shell companies in BVI.

The other major contributors have all stated that they see no reason to pay tax in the UK.

nigglynellie Mon 06-Nov-17 17:15:41

The Queen pays financial advisors accountants and so on to invest her money. People whom she trusts to do things properly for her. What would be the point in doing that and then constantly questioning and querying their decisions? You might as well do it yourself in the first place! I agree her advisors need scrutinising, but not HM.

lemongrove Mon 06-Nov-17 17:21:43

Everybody who has money looks for ways of legal tax avoidance, and there will be millions of people who have pensions from funds which are invested in all sorts of off shore trusts.

MaizieD Mon 06-Nov-17 17:25:08

^ Do you have private information on all of them?^

No need to, it's all freely available on the internet.

MaizieD Mon 06-Nov-17 17:25:46

Damn. Formatting fail....

whitewave Mon 06-Nov-17 17:28:10

The more you read the worse it gets too maize