I see the EU Remainers' PROJECT FEAR is alive and well.

Day6. Have you given me any answers yet.
Please can you tell me some of the EU rules that you do not like
And what rules have the UK been unable to veto.
Just answer these and you might persuade me that you are right.
Also regarding what is said as insults, have a read of this. drive.google.com/file/d/1JjhEihVJ87xVfN3I-VxM4IxQrDOyNqOv/view
You should have seen the message I had from a leaveEU admin

So if the vote had been to remain and a poster talked about the difficulty and devastation that remaining is causing to some peoples livelihood and standard of living, how would you have responded whitewave?

People voted to leave because they believe that not being a member of the EU will improve their livelihood and standard of living, for themselves, their C and GC. The same reasons no doubt that people voted to remain.

You posted about the concerns and worries your children are having. I didn't see anyone sneering about that.

It did help us get out of the trap of being the 'sick man of Europe' though.
I have never trusted a Tory Govt and I still don't - this increase of the Personal Allowance - in my case it rises exactly in line with the pension increase I receive each year so my tax remains exactly the same - and has done over all the years of these big PA increases.

I know we are not supposed to mention <whispers> 'immigration' but you cannot defend the recent open door policy so loved by Labour governments.

I have no problem with people coming to the UK for a better life and I count people from many backgrounds and cultures as my friends.

However, immigration only works for all as long as there is a bottomless Government money pot to build new hostels, homes, schools, hospitals, roads, power stations, rail networks, airports, transport hubs, social facilities, clinics etc, etc, etc.

There isn't, so the standard of living for EVERYONE goes down and we see the infrastructure of the island as very lacking.

You cannot squeeze a pint into a quart pot.

Immigration (or increased population if your prefer that term) became a divisive issue because of Labour's disastrous open door policies. Every day life became less easy because more people needed UK facilities without their being a plan to accommodate (in all senses of the word) a population explosion.

You seem to have convinced yourself about what you keep banging on about as Project Fear, Day6, but constant repetition doesn't make it any more correct. It's a well-worn method used by certain newspapers, and seems to please those who just seek validation of their own preexisting beliefs, however it is probably more likely to have the opposite effect on any less susceptible people with an open, enquiring mind. The same goes for the constant stream of insults that just keeps coming.

Well to be fair MamaCaz your entire post could be aimed at those who constantly fore tell the doom and gloom that leaving the EU is, and is going to bring. Just substitute "Project Fear" with pro Brexit and Day6's name with a staunch remainer.

Further to the above - from the Guardian.

New Labour failed to predict a surge in immigration and their miscalculation has shaped British politics ever since.

How Immigration Came To Haunt Labour

With the help of information from local council officials and union shop stewards, Denham spotted earlier than others the impact of immigration from the eastern and central European states. In February 2006, he wrote a prophetic memo to Tony Blair, chancellor Gordon Brown and home secretary Charles Clarke, warning that the number of immigrants was far higher than the government’s figures suggested. According to the memo, roughly 14,000 eastern European immigrants had arrived in Southampton within the previous 18 months. This was placing immense pressure on maternity services and leading employers to lower wages.

The response from the Whitehall machine to was largely indifferent. “I sent a warning message to government about the impact of immigration in Southampton, saying Whitehall was not picking up quickly enough what was happening on the ground, or what the wider electorate were saying in response,” he recalls. “To be fair to government, it was probably true the impact at the time varied enormously from area to area, and there was real uncertainty about how long the impact would last. The reaction to migration was seen very differently in London, for instance, to other places.”

Outlining the impact on the everyday lives of his constituents, Denham argued at the time that resentment of immigration would grow. “One of the problems was that people were supposed to register if they were employed but many came as self-employed,” Denham says. “The biggest impacts were in self-employed trades like construction, where you didn’t have to register.” In the memo, Denham stated that the daily rate for a builder in the city had fallen by 50% since 2004. He also noted that hospital accident and emergency services were under strain because migrants tended not to use GPs as a first port of call. It also turned out that the local further education college had to close its doors after 1,000 migrants attempted to sign up for an English-as-a-second-language course on one day. Whitehall, Denham argued, was wholly out of touch with the concerns of his constituents. The Labour government needed a comprehensive assessment to work out how it should deal with the surge in immigration."

An open border policy has not been in the interests of the indigenous population. That was one of the drivers for the UK response to the EU, without doubt and as we have seen it has caused consternation throughout the wealthier member states of the EU. It was and remains a valid concern and anyone saying it isn't must be truly blinkered.

www.theguardian.com/news/2015/mar/24/how-immigration-came-to-haunt-labour-inside-story

Day6 - no need to jet off to Chamonix for a spot of skiing, I can just walk across the road and put them on ;)

And no-one, but no-one here has ever said the EU is a panacea for all ills. Do you really think we actually enjoy the doom and gloom? Do you think we choose to wake up in a sweat in the middle of the night, or with panic in the stomach when waking up. Do you think we enjoy watching our beloved country being torn apart- and our relatives in both NI and the Republic sick of the worry that the very thin peace may be blown away, literally or otherwise?

No we do not.

You seem to have convinced yourself about what you keep banging on about as Project Fear, Day6, but constant repetition doesn't make it any more correct.

Hmm, kettle, pot black MamaCaz

Your constant 'banging on' about how awful THE FUTURE is going to be is very wearing too. ( That, btw, is another term much loved by Remoaners to belittle any Leaver argument - note how often they use 'banging on' to denigrate Leavers.)

our relatives in both NI and the Republic sick of the worry that the very thin peace may be blown away, literally or otherwise?

My relatives on both sides of the Irish border mustn't be as nervy as yours Jura. Or is it that you are prone to massive exaggeration before any solution has been found?

The Irish border situation is a concern but my Irish relatives have not suddenly started harbouring feelings for hatred for people living over the border. They are interested to see what the EU and the Government will come up with regarding trading and tariffs.

There is interest and concern but not rage and hatred according to my academic Irish Uncle. It may be a cliche but he says in his laid back way that there are far worse things to worry about than an imaginary line across an island.

However carry on fanning those flames of anger and hatred if it suits your Remainer agenda. It seems to.

It's not the EU that has caused the 'difficulty and devastation' in people's lives; it's our own governments. We were the 5th largest economy in the world. There was OODLES of money sloshing around in it, plenty of money for higher wages, social welfare, education, improved infrastructure etc. etc. But where did the money go? Higher and higher rewards for executives, bankers and shareholders, most of which avoided being taxed and was hived off abroad, not recirculated in the economy to the benefit of everyone.

And the complete MYTH of the nation's economy being like a household economy has taken such a hold that the poor old British public, whose wages were being kept as low as their employers could possibly make them, whose health service became no longer completely free, whose children had to pay and take out loans for university education, who suffered loss of bus routes along with ever rising fares as the privatisation profit motive became entrenched, who have to wade through a maze of tariffs and charges to get a halfway decent deal on their energy prices, etc. etc.(there's loads more) have bought into that MYTH and meekly accepted that it's their station in life to be poor because the rich people say so. Whereas there would be plenty for all; in fact, we were working toward a far more fair distribution of wealth in the UK until Thatcher came along with her good housewife spin on the economy and enthusiasm for handing all our assets to the rich. It's bloody Victorian times all over again.

And then, along come a load of rich people who tell them that it's all the fault of the EU that they're poor and there's no proper jobs and they all fall for it.

How on earth can it be the fault of the EU? Our prosperity has grown because we were a member of it. It is not the fault of the EU that that prosperity hasn't been shared fairly. It's governments who impose the austerity which has made most of us poorer, not the EU. It's governments who have given the wealthy all the tax breaks while upping indirect taxes which hit the poor the hardest. It's governments which have pared the safety nets of state provision to the very minimum, not the EU.

So I'm not impressed by ranty, shouty people like Day6 who can only regurgitate the rubbish she's been fed by all those millionaires and billionaires who desperately want to get away from EU legislation that forces them to pay their workers at least a wage that lets them just about get by in life, and to provide them with safe working environments and to restrict their working hours and enable them to have decent holidays (ironically enough, much of this initiated by the UK). And regulations that don't allow them to poison the environment, our beaches, our rivers. Who see in Brexit an opportunity for making even more profits to squirrel away in tax havens while taking advantage of all the state provided 'goods' which they don't contribute to.

No, not impressed at all, Day6, just amazed at the gullibility of most Leavers.

Yet again no answers to my questions. Please try i would be so grateful Day 6.
***Re whispering immigration***** I can say very loudly......... It was a lie. We have always been able to control our Borders, but successive UK governments could not be bothered. To stay in the UK after 3 months you either have to be self supporting or working. If not you have to go back.

well MaizieD, I think you have summed it all up perfectly, and I share your exasperation as yet again, insults are slung around, and assumptions made. Just why is there the assumption that only the rich 'lefties' voted to Remain? I know many people who have always voted Conservative and who voted Remain, and as we know, many in strong Labour constituencies voted for Brexit, so lets have less of the sweeping generalisations if you will.

Bye the bye - day6, I can squeeze a pint into a quart pot (can't squeeze a quart into a pint pot though...)

Thank you MaizieD.

BTW btw how long have Conservatives been in power now? What did they do about immigration- and housing, education, NHS- basic infrastructure?

Thank you MaizieD.

BTW btw how long have Conservatives been in power now? What did they do about immigration- and housing, education, NHS- basic infrastructure?

Well said Maizie. The other point I would like to add, It is not the elite people who want to stay in the EU. Proof....... Look at the millions paid by the multi million elite to finance the brexit team. All of the work done since the referendum to DEMOCRATICALLY question the true benefit of brexit has mostly been crowd funded by us traitors. You can state the saying "project fear" as much as you like, as brexiters were spouting "project fear' regarding staying in the EU. Remember the lie about Turkey. But when occasionally you get a fact, as some have shown in earlier posts, at least acknowledge them instead of ignoring them.

And regarding hatred and anger, please look at the link I posted.

I see that you have named yourself well EUgrandma did you anticipate lots of happy argy bargies on GN?

A bit more to be fearful about.

www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/uk-services-sector-growth-brexit-uncertainty-november-gdp-cips-a8092446.html

Last evening on BBC1Wales was a programme specifically about immigration in Newport and the surrounds. Generally speaking people were in favour of it and the immigrant people at the discussion said how well they had been welcomed over the years. One man - not sure of his origin but I suspect maybe a displaced Kenyan Indian- has now got a huge food manufacturing business - Global Foods - he was saying that he needs staff and cannot get Welsh people despite various ways of advertising his jobs. They have in the main been done by EU workers.
I dare say this programme maybe able to be viewed in the BBC pod - called The Hour.

Don’t worry about snide comments EUgran. Some posters think there is a rule on GN that new posters have to tread carefully when they first post as though GN were some sort of club. They are wrong - you look like a great new addition ( if that is indeed what you are)

Welshwife, I have just been reading about housebuilding, and the fact that over 50% of those working onsite in London are from overseas.
So much for the Tory promise of building more houses, at a time when foreigners are being told to go home.
Most of those in London are from Romania and Poland, the very people that Day6 wants to leave.

dj yes I read that

Day 6, The ”How immigration came to haunt Labour” article rings true. But, when things go wrong it is the easiest thing in the world to blame somebody else. So let's blame the EU for immigration, poor housing, failing NHS, poor educational standards etc. Why not add poor pensions since we are one of the worst countries in Europe to retire in. Immigrants came here because OUR governments allowed easy entry and access to benefits. We could have had much stricter controls/registration process but we chose not to.