The Irish question

in fact we'll probably slump a bit, sulk a bit, then get things together.

This is the bit which very few Leavers seem to have lofully comprehended. If we leave without a deal it will be a far bigger catastrophe than leaving with a poor deal. It won't be a 'bit of hardship', it'll be no planes flying, huge queues at borders, food shortages, WTO rules (which are not at all good and the only country which trades wholly under WTO is a very poor slave economy), no radiotherapy for cancer patients, no exports to the EU (our biggest market) as the regulatory framework under which there is free movement of goods throughout the EU would immediately cease to apply etc. etc. etc. All this would happen because there are no contingency plans in place for it (if there were then 'business' wouldn't be panicking so badly and demanding clarity fron the government.)

This isn't the dead easy 'leaving a club' analogy which Leavers have been blithely fed and which most seem to have uncrtically fallen for. This is untangling 40+ years of regulatory agreement, of trade agreements wholly and legally based on that regulatory agreement. This is the stuff that EU law experts like Michael Duggan was telling us about pre referendum and which was pooh poohed as project fear (or self interest!)

The ever optimistic lemon points out that Leave voters did include higher educated people but I'll point out, yet again, that there were fewer of them. Most of the more highly educated voters voted Remain.
And I think she should read Richard North's blog...

www.eureferendum.com/archive.aspx

The British position on this is:

The UK must reach an agreement with the EU in order to ensure that the Irish side of the land border, which is subject to relevant EU regulations, is also as seamless and frictionless as possible. The nature of the border clearly means that we must aim for an agreed, reciprocal solution. As Michel Barnier, the EU’s chief negotiator, has said – the solution for the border between Northern Ireland and Ireland cannot “be based on a precedent”. While agreeing that the solution for Northern Ireland cannot be based on any previous precedent, the UK also notes that there are a number of examples of where the EU has set aside the normal regulations and codes set out in EU law in order to recognise the circumstances of certain border areas.

Devising a way forward on the Irish side of the land border will also require a flexible and imaginative approach that goes beyond current EU frameworks to achieve this.

So if all other countries are prevaricating what would you call this? Ireland (this thread is about Ireland) has every right to use their veto if they do not get what they want. We have just used the biggest veto in the history to get what less than half our population have said they want so why shouldn't everyone else look after themselves as the Brexiteers have done?

I think most of us do realise that GG, but are fed up with all the filibustering. Unless we get down to some proper negotiating and stop all the prevarication and posturing we're going out cold. With nothing. And giving nothing.
It's not just the UK which will suffer, in fact we'll probably slump a bit, sulk a bit, then get things together. It's the Eastern European countries which will suffer most from us leaving without any agreement or further payments. In the end Germany and the Western States will be just fine, as will we. So, yes we do want the negotiators to stop making things difficult and start being just a bit constructive.

It is strange how leave voters do see every other country as 'making things difficult' for the UK while we are 'fighting to make Britain great again' Dear me, it is strange that they don't see that we have actually put all these countries in a position where they have to protect themselves against what we are doing and, if we hadn't, they wouldn't waste time and money on us.

You're worried about it being made difficult for us . What about the people in Ireland? That just about sums up the mentality of brexit voters [imo]. Again, I'm disgusted...

Azie09 you do realise that over 17 million voted for leaving the EU including all manner of people including many, many politicians, teachers, business people ( especially small ones) and other professions.All backward looking and ill informed?
You are making the same lazy mistake that others do on forums, lumping all together as the same.
Just as not all who voted for Remain did it because they were scared of leaving the EU, or had no vision, or thought it may stop them holidaying in Europe ( although some did.)
It’s happening, we are leaving and although Eire has never been a friend to the UK as NI has (and is) and it’s going to be made difficult for us, never doubt that it can and will be
done.

Well, as the old slogan says "England's difficulty is Ireland's opportunity".

www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2017/11/28/chaos-is-not-the-will-of-the-people/

Not just about Ireland, but it is about the way it is being treated.
Murphy thinks the most likely thing to happen is Sinn Fein coming to the rescue.

www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/ignorance-of-irish-history-means-brexit-talks-will-not-end-well-1.3305818

That's an if only solution Durhamjen , I second it.

This is an interesting presentation of an Irish point of view with a commentary on English politicians behaviour:

www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/ignorance-of-irish-history-means-brexit-talks-will-not-end-well

(I removed some of the link, hope it works).

I stopped and read some comments on Facebook today to a post by the MEP, Molly Scott Cato. The nastiest and rudest comments were from self identified leave voters and, as always, if you take a quick look at their profile pages they are always full of unpleasant racist, anti-immigrant images and statements along with slogans like 'we got through two World Wars on our own and we can do it again'. And leave voters may protest otherwise but the majority viewpoint of the Leave side are evidently and sadly backward looking, ill informed and inward looking at a point when the world needs cooperation and communication. Treating other countries with disdain and as objects to be ripped off in trade deals is hardly the way forward.

infacts.org/solve-irish-question-stay-eu/

Here's the answer to the Irish question. So simple, really.

infacts.org/solve-irish-question-stay-eu/

Here's the answer to the Irish question. So simple, really.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/27/mps-attack-david-davis-for-handing-over-redacted-brexit-reports

Edited versions handed over today. Even Jacob Rees-Mogg says they could be in contempt. Have you ever known him to disagree with the government? Maybe he's after a job.
He'd probably be a better foreign secretary than Boris. Couldn't be worse.

Will anyone buy it when he does Jen?

I can't remember a time (doesn't mean it hasn't happened but I think I would remember) when a government has got to the point of being in contempt of court. I don't think this will be the end of them being involved with the courts either unless they manage to realise that Parliament holds the authority and the government can only use that parliamentary authority if they have a decent majority.

Interesting times.

Or a vote of no confidence in the Government could do it.

What durhamjen an army takeover? Like in Zimbabwe?

I forgot about the shed, GracesGran. Has he finished writing his book yet?

David Davis has to have his impact assessments in parliament tomorrow, otherwise the government is in contempt.
Still hope for an overthrow, mostlyharmless.

Oh the indignation! If countries (Wales and Scotland) want to go their own way, who are we in England to hold them against their will, unless we intend to behave like Spain! Ditto NI; If, in the unlikely event, they want to join the South, again, who are we to stop them. The division of Ireland was a recipe for constant discord from its conception to the present day, and should have never happened.

It's good to see Labour favouring a softer line on Brexit dj.

Just the little problem of overthrowing the Tory Government now!

infacts.org/labour-takes-step-towards-sane-brexit-policy/

I think Wales is a separate country.

But Maizie, because you think something it doesn't follow everyone thinks the same as you

Maisie, is that the royal 'we' or have you been appointed as spokesperson for the forum, if the latter you do not speak for me

Oh, sorry Ab, did you not know that Wales is a separate country of the UK? I thought everyone did. That's why I said 'we'.

Why do you think he bought the shed?