The Irish question

Decisions based on fear of terrorism. We have a very fragile peace here.

North Down MP Lady Sylvia Hermon has said she may have to rethink her support for Theresa May on Brexit if the Prime Minister accepts the DUP's call for her to remove the controversial backstop from her proposed UK/EU withdrawal agreement.

Speaking on BBC Radio Ulster's Inside Politics programme, the independent MP said the Prime Minister did not have the power to remove the backstop from the withdrawal agreement.

She said the backstop is there "to protect peace".

"We have enjoyed peace for 20 years. The Prime Minister was formerly the Home Secretary. She well knows we cannot afford to have a hard border on the island of Ireland."

www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/sylvia-hermon-prime-minister-may-risks-my-support-if-she-caves-in-37750571.html

Anyone who has never been to Ireland and does not understand the problem of the Irish border should watch this-

www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1YFWGSOw_A&vl=en

Owen Paterson, a former secretary of state for Northern Ireland, argued this week in the Guardian that the UK could leave the customs union, break free from EU rules, and still avoid a hard border on the island of Ireland.

The problem with this claim is that the logic of a hard Brexit means hard borders. The EU is the world’s most advanced legal, technical and institutional environment for seamless border management. As Brexiteers well know, this has entailed common rules and coordinated systems. Paterson’s claims rest on the assumption that the UK can rip up the terms and conditions but stay in the club.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/14/northern-ireland-hard-brexit-hard-border-owen-paterson

It is not only the NI secretary who was totally ignorant of the political realities in NI. I believe that most people in Great Britain who voted for brexit never had any understanding of the NI situation or gave it a second thought.

Tbh the N I thing is too depressing to talk about at the minute. A lot of talk about it here atm also the no Assembly thing. So many urgent day to day issues need dealt with like health service problems. What a depressing place.

Oops! Apologies - on re-reading my post I see I left the 'a' out of education.

thanks for reply Devorgilla. have been busy. will read later.

Not the purpose of the post but thought it might interest some of you. Just a quick post to say during the night I woke having nightmares about the troubles. This is not unusual. Im sure I'm not the only person in N Ireland to do this. The effect of living through those awful years never leaves you. I remember particularly starting my car and hoping that it didnt explode. Or being afraid that a soldiers gun would go off accidentally at a car checkpoint. ( even though I knew we needed them here)

It's more than a little bit worrying when the Northern Ireland Secretary has this to say.

As she admits, she has clearly lived her life in a bubble, and not a good one.

How can someone so unaware of the UK's recent history even get to be an MP; let alone a government minister?

Sorry for the delay annep. I haven't visited this thread in a while and it took me time to find my posts. I mentioned that comment about a united Ireland as it is always the solution trotted out when Ireland presents a problem for the mainland. Some people seem to think it is an immediate solution to the border and Brexit but it is anything 'but'. You could hold a referendum tomorrow, get the go ahead for a united Ireland from both sides but it would take years to come into being. Lots of issues affecting one or other part have to be resolved such as, for starters, the NHS v the system in the Republic, the pension situation, the cultural differences - not to mention the flag (and I'd love to be a fly on the wall for that part of the discussion). I'd love to hear the blueprint that those who advocate this as a solution have in their heads but I doubt I will live that long. I am less sure than others that we are close to a united Ireland as I think it is being touted because of Brexit and the border problem. I don't think that you have to be joined to another country just because you occupy the same land mass no matter how convenient it is for others. For example if Scotland or Wales became independent from England would we all campaign that they should be reunited as all on one island. The Scots are a distinct group as are the Welsh as are the Northern Irish as are the Southern Irish. They have common areas but those have to be strong enough to make you want to unite and not because of political expediency. What people advocate in a situation like Brexit and what they do in the ballot box when the crunch comes are often two different things.
As for an integrated eduction system, this was in the 1921-22 plan for the North but was unacceptable to the Roman Catholic Church - and the rest as they say is history.

I absolutely agree annep

Varian I believe our children are the way forward but I do strongly feel that we need integrated education so that they get away from the influence of older generation and form new ideas together.

"Our Future Our Choice NI’ has just launched! Please support in whatever way you can! We are a group of young people from across Northern Ireland, campaigning for a People’s Vote on the final Brexit deal.

The voices of young people have been repeatedly ignored. In Northern Ireland, we feel especially politically homeless. The interests of the people here are misrepresented and underrepresented in Westminster, and with the collapse of Stormont we have been ignored for too long. Nobody speaks for Northern Ireland. So we are taking a stand.

We are children of the peace process, and are the first generation to grow up in a region free from conflict. Brexit is the greatest threat facing our generation; to our way of life, our jobs and our futures. We are worried that Brexit will reopen the divisions of the past and drag our communities backwards.

We are a cross-community campaign, and have already built considerable support across the region. From women’s groups to farmers and students, and from Belfast to the border - we are bringing people together to tell the politicians we won’t be ignored any more."

uk.gofundme.com/ofocni

Watch this short video and think how you would feel. I'ts their future which could be blighted by brexit.

Devorgilla perhaps you could explain the idea you have of someone proposing a united Ireland.
You say the Republic wouldnt want it so it wouldn't work. Perhaps we in the North wouldn't want it. Good luck to anyone finding a solution!

The DUP's views on brexit are the opposite of most folk living in NI.

So Diana leave N Ireland to cope with the migration problem? Would that be fair?

Theresa May is only in power with the backing of the Unionists, without them she's out, in fact the Tory party is out so a general election seems certain.
Is there a chance that parliament will somehow accept border checks at mainland ports, which is the practical alternative and does take place at present. Passports are checked at Hollyhead and Liverpool etc.

Assuming there is no deal, there would have to be border posts, there is no getting round that.
If that applied to goods only, goods traffic would have to go through the border checks, that happens on the Swiss border while people drive straight through. There are border posts on all roads and people may be stopped and questioned about currency they are carrying - we were. ( I was not keen on being stopped by a border guard with a machine gun asking how many Swiss francs we were carrying ) Switzerland does have free movement of people as condition of a free trade agreement and there are no passport checks.

If the UK decided against free movement how are we going to control illegal migration and smuggling without border posts.?. (Other than technology which does not exist)

I havent studied it in depth so I havent a fraction of the relevant knowledge that many posters have. I live in N Ireland. We are part of UK so there shouldn't be a border in the Irish sea between us and the mainland. The EU will need to have some kind of border checks between ROI and NI. It will be an easy route for those wishing to enter the UK. (and I'm not talking about those who genuinely need our help) However, important though it is I find the whole subject of Brexit totally boring. Better to pretend it isnt happening ? I have got my Irish passport though! ( first thing I did after referendum). My wish is for a second referendum on whether we should leave. Not all older folk want to leave! By the way, good luck to anyone with solving the problems in my country.

I came across this little gem on an Irish friend s page this evening.
Jacob Rees-Mogg: "Ireland sells us over £800m of beef a year. If we put tariffs on that, the Irish farming industry would be destroyed."
Such a GOOD man the MOGG isn't he.Mind you he's not too bright ,there are 25 other EU countries who will buy Irish beef .Now who will buy our produce ?

After nearly two decades of peaceful coexistence between unionists and nationalists, we risk reigniting the sectarian conflicts of the past.

www.newstatesman.com/politics/brexit/2017/11/leader-return-irish-question

Brexit: Dominic Raab says Irish border deal is no nearer

www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-45346587

The phrase ‘the Irish question’ perfectly encapsulates the UK’s and, in particular, Brexiteers’ attitudes towards Ireland. Ireland is a problem. It is a problem that is ignored at first, then batted away flippantly, only to come back as a major thorn in the UK’s side. The Irish question was not settled when Ireland was subsumed into the UK through the Acts of Union in 1800. It was not settled by the doomed Home Rule Act of 1914, and it certainly was not settled when Ireland was partitioned in 1921. If there is one thing, therefore, that is certain about Ireland’s relationship with the UK, it is that Ireland has always been a problem.

The Irish question was also not settled by Good Friday Agreement (GFA) in 1998 either; however, this was the very point. The GFA was all about parking the big questions to one side. It was all about ambiguity. It was about allowing the people of Northern Ireland to be Irish or British, or both, or Northern Irish. It was about reassuring unionists that Northern Ireland remained an integral part of the United Kingdom while, at the same time, establishing a path to a united Ireland that would be decided only by the people of Ireland.

The key to the GFA is that ultimately it is a utopian document. It is an expression of two competing promised lands: one of a united Ireland; and one of Northern Ireland’s future secure in the UK. What allows these two competing visions to survive is the same for all utopias: that their realisation is left for the future. It is something to be built towards. A united Ireland is something that can be achieved through peaceful democratic means enshrined by the GFA; simultaneously, peace in Northern Ireland can secure Irish nationalist acquiescence to the status quo, thus preserving the union. Similarly, like all good utopias, there is no set date for achieving this; utopian visions must be attainable but, at the same time, always just out of reach.

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/brexit-irish-border_uk_5ab3ed3ee4b0bf1a4e3e045d

The Irish border challenge in Brexit negotiations has to be solved by Britain, not the EU, the Swedish government has said.

Theresa May says a no-deal Brexit 'wouldn't be the end of the world'
Read more
The Swedish minister for EU affairs and trade, Ann Linde, said it was regrettable the Conservative party had made such an “extreme ideological” issue of the need to maintain the existing invisible border between Northern Ireland and Ireland after Brexit.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/aug/28/irish-border-question-must-be-solved-by-uk-not-eu-says-sweden