The Irish question

George Mitchell, the former US senator who helped broker peace in Northern Ireland, has said that if Brexit results in a hard Irish border the economic “losses” in the UK would be “aggravated”. Speaking in Belfast, Mr Mitchell said there would be a “huge historical irony” if the people of the Republic of Ireland became the biggest victims of a “hard UK Brexit”.

www.aol.co.uk/video/view/mitchell-speaks-out-against-an-irish-border-after-brexit/5b7e80be600c9a2fb67cea25/?guccounter=1

When the United Kingdom voted to leave the European Union in June 2016, it was largely based on a desire to take back control of its borders.

While the UK was a member of the EU, trade and people moved relatively freely through the UK’s “soft” borders based on EU rules. Now, Brexit supporters argue, the UK can decide who and what gets into the UK by “hardening” the border. This is a fairly complicated process for the UK’s maritime borders. And it has serious consequences for its only overland border — the one between Northern Ireland and Ireland.

The question of how to regulate the Irish border has caused Brexit-EU negotiations to grind to a halt. That’s because the border wasn’t just open due to EU rules. It has been open for 20 years as a compromise that ended decades of violence in Ireland and as a symbol of identity in the country. Closing this border could undermine one of Europe’s greatest success stories

www.vox.com/videos/2018/8/21/17764444/brexit-irish-border-ireland-eu-uk

In their efforts to break the deadlock over the Irish border, British negotiators have already proposed a temporary customs arrangement, under which the U.K. would keep the EU’s tariff regime until the end of 2021. Now, May’s officials are looking at proposals to maintain the bloc’s single market regulations in key areas that will help ensure trade flows smoothly so there’s no need for checkpoints or police at the land border with Ireland.

www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-08-13/may-is-said-to-weigh-brexit-fix-that-keeps-eu-rules-for-longer

Members of the public could be stopped, searched and detained within a mile-wide strip of the border under new legislation planned by the British government.

The controversial powers are contained in the Counter-Terrorism and Border Security Bill which is currently working its way through Westminster.

If the bill becomes law any member of the public could be stopped within a mile of the border to establish if they are entering or leaving the north.

The new proposals have already passed committee stage at Westminster and some observers believe could be law by Christmas - just months before Brexit is due to kick in.

www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2018/08/10/news/concerns-raised-about-border-stop-and-search-zone-1404017/

U.K. Prime Minister Theresa May is stepping up the government’s preparations in case Brexit negotiations break down and the country crashes out of the European Union without a deal.

May is planning a top-level meeting of her cabinet ministers early in September specifically to discuss how to ready the U.K. for a no-deal Brexit, according to people familiar with the matter.

Separately, a working group of senior government officials is being convened to devise ways to keep the Irish border free of customs checks and police even if there’s no withdrawal agreement, one of the people said.

www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-08-08/u-k-s-may-is-said-to-plan-cabinet-summit-on-no-deal-brexit

Northern Ireland would vote more strongly to remain in the EU if there was another Brexit poll, a study has suggested. A total of 69% would favour Remain if there was another referendum compared to 56% at the vote two years ago, the UK In A Changing Europe project said.

Catholics were much more likely to support a united Ireland if there was a "hard exit" in which the UK left the customs union and single market.

The Irish border is one of the most vexed questions facing negotiators who aim to strike a deal by the autumn ahead of the UK's withdrawal from the EU next year.

www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/brexit/brexit-northern-ireland-support-to-remain-in-eu-soars-to-69-36928116.html

The Common Travel Area means “minimal or non-existent border controls”, in the words of an Irish parliamentary report.

In practice the land border is almost completely open, but airlines and ferry operators still require photo ID, which doesn’t always have to be a passport. Passengers are always asked for passports at airports where immigration officers can’t tell that they’ve come from within the Common Travel Area.

Nevertheless, people can use the open border to travel illegally from Ireland to Northern Ireland and on to the rest of the UK, and likewise in the other direction.

This is currently addressed by “Operation Gull”, in which immigration officers check passengers on routes between Northern Ireland and the island of Great Britain. This is designed to compensate for the lack of checks on unauthorised travel across the north/south border.

fullfact.org/europe/eu-referendum-and-irish-border/?gclid=Cj0KCQjwv-DaBRCcARIsAI9sba88kQTNdrxzRaR9yMvDwwwUVDG56hqz5is3SO9NMkjHyKoQi_FsDa0aAkbLEALw_wcB

How then does having no border between ROI and NI and of course no border between NI and GB vere amount to "controlling our borders"?

Paddyann you are British whether you like it or not.

Good posts Joelsnan

Oh dear Paddyann, I just realised what we're up against, I think signing off is the best option! DFTT

paddyann
I am pleased you feel the need to identify yourself as Scottish, however that does not absolve your country of complicity in colonisation.
If you want to self flagellate over actions of the 16/17 and 18 centuries. Why not go back further and get the Romans and vikings to do the same. People forget how cruelly our own poor were treated and were forced to work (and still do) to line the pockets of the rich British (and Scottish).
Do other colonisers beat themselves up as much as some Brits/scots like to I think not. And, having been to a number of ex colonies I can assure you that many of the residents wish UK would take them back under their wing. They are grateful for the infrastructure, education, healthcare and in some instances democracy.

I've said it before and I'll keep saying it I am not British ,there is no such thing as British ..it is not a country .its just an Island.I am Scottish .

Joelsnan really you think we give through good hearted generosity? Its to make up for the pillaging of those countries wealth in the past,the horrors we visited on them ,the "christian" reformation of people who didn't want to BE christians .In short its for screwing millions of lives up and thinking WE were right.The UK is not a world power its all in the minds of the Westminster mafia ...and those silly enough to believe what they say .

Azie09
There are some well informed and engaging posters on Gransnet but given the age profile, one can sometimes imagine one sees only to well those who think Brexit will lead back to a pastoral idyll called 'Great' Britain. LOL seems the only response

Sad to burst your illusion of grey haired grannies longing to return to 'the good old times'
Remember we were the ones who created the 'teenager', started feminism, began the sixties cultural revolution, developed the contraceptive pill, camaigned for nuclear disarmament..
We are champions of change and certainly look forward and not backwards. We are always looking for ways to improve the lives of ourselves and our descendants and remaining within an environment that is getting progressively dysfunctional is certainly not the way to go.

paddyann
I think you would be suprised just how much influence UK still has around the world and this is not through military actions, it is through the charitable work undertaken overseas. Why do you think we put billions into overseas aide, sometimes to the detriment of our own folk (think flood relief).?

Ach Azie09 its only EVER been GREAT Britain because its the largest of the British Isles.Sadly a lot of folk believe the hype about us being a superpower and world leader....they are about to find out the truth .They wont like it !

Also informative:

www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/brexit-raises-questions-about-the-future-of-eu-aviation-1.3165467

Michael O'Leary of Ryanair has a slightly different, wider view about flights post-Brexit.
www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/michael-o-leary-flying-high-in-the-battle-for-europe-s-skies-1.3164390

Varian, I hadn't looked at Mumsnet or commented on this thread because for the most part (and my peace of mind), I've largely been avoiding threads about Brexit. I find them deeply depressing. I'm already horrified by the ineptitude of our present government and I can't believe the opinionated views that so many express on forum threads - as though we all had first hand knowledge of the ins and outs of it all. I think many avoid the threads for the same reason.
As someone half Irish, I think avoidance of the border question probably relates partly to age-old racism and disregard for Ireland and its history. The attitude of some ministers is shameful and May's shoring up of her government with the DUP is beneath contempt. She's painted herself into a corner by relying on them, there's the Good Friday agreement and a fragile peace remains. Who has any answers? What is there to say?
As for Mumsnet, I imagine most of them are younger, they've grown up with all the advantages of free movement and membership of the EU, they have more to lose, their children have more to lose and they are all too aware of it and have the energy to argue.
There are some well informed and engaging posters on Gransnet but given the age profile, one can sometimes imagine one sees only to well those who think Brexit will lead back to a pastoral idyll called 'Great' Britain. LOL seems the only response.

p.s. I would love to know which civil servant was responsible for the signs at Bristol (and presumably other) airports which absurdly say 'Welcome to GREAT Britain'. Pathetic ideological nonsense, like those motorway signs that say 'Sorry for the delay', I always hear an Essex whine as I read!

Read this varian
www.irishnews.com/news/brexit/2018/07/20/news/ireland-cannot-block-british-flights-from-airspace-if-there-s-a-no-deal-brexit--1387588/

Flights between the UK and the rest of the European Union will be grounded by a hard Brexit unless a separate deal to cover aviation is struck with London , the Irish Aviation Authority (IAA) has warned.

The declaration by the IAA follows criticism in Britain yesterday of Taoiseach Leo Varadkar after he warned that British aircraft would lose rights to Irish air space.

Under the Chicago Convention, aircraft from signatory countries have right to overfly another signatory country’s airpspace, and this will continue after a no-deal Brexit.

However, flights between the UK and the remaining 27 EU member states will be grounded the event of a hard Brexit unless a side deal covering aviation is struck.

Taoiseach Leo Varadkar said on Wednesday that the Government was stepping up preparations for a disorderly Brexit, and warned “planes would not fly” in the event no withdrawal agreement is struck.

www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/uk-ireland-flights-will-be-grounded-without-post-brexit-deal-1.3571311

After TM 's visit to Ireland it is obvious that the Irish border problem is insoluble.

I sometimes check out Mumsnet and am struck by the contrast with GN.

I know that MN has a bigger membership than GN so we could expect more posts, but in the twenty four hours since I posted on this old thread on the Irish Question, not one GNetter has thought it important to post on what is one of the biggest problems of brexit.

During the last twenty four hours there have been more than a hundred posts on this thread on Mumsnet.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/3311061-What-is-the-solution-to-the-Irish-border?pg=1

If I was a young Mum, concerned about my children's future, and I noticed how little interest there appeared to be on GN, I think it would reinforce any prejudices I might have had about the uncaring old folk who voted leave.

Today Theresa May is visiting the Irish border for the first time since the EU referendum.

Her insistence that there will be no border between NI and the Republic of Ireland, and there will be no border in the Irish Sea is surely incompatable with "taking control of our borders", a mantra she and others have continuously repeated for over two years.

I think that the Leavers' thinking is that the EU should finance any new border arrangements. On the grounds that it is they who are insisting there had to be a hard border between the EU and the 'third country' that we will become on leaving.

But we can't have a hard border, anyway, because of the Good Friday Agreement. So it's all a bit academic really...

Who is going to pay to install and maintain all these “ hi tech solutions” ? Maybe we’ll just copy Trump and “ build a wall”.

The border between NI and the ROI is some 300 miles long and has 275 crossing points. In some instances it passes through peoples houses or a farmer's landholding.

No, I don't see any problems with simplistic high-tech solutions at all....