The Irish question

TM doesn't want to mostly - that seems to be enough for her.

Can we not stay in the customs union?
I know Theresa May has explicitly ruled that out, but it seems the only solution to the Irish Problem is either to stay in the single market or some sort of EU customs union.
Is that a feasible solution?

That looks an interesting article dj and I will look it up. No simple solution I am afraid. And, Azie09, you are so right when you say it is all a sorry mess. Too many missed opportunities to put it right. The peace deal looks like it is sailing serenely on the top of the water but really, like the proverbial duck, it is paddling madly underneath.

I listen on Sunday mornings to an Irish politics chat show on RTE. This week they were running through the English press headlines, especially the Murdoch owned ones, and commenting on the careless attitude of the English government towards the border problem and the rude way this was being expressed. For those who don't know, the Sun recently ran a headline telling Veradka to 'shut his gob and grow up'.

A friend who is Irish born but spent most of her life here and so has a slightly plummy English accent was recently visiting Cork and came back shocked saying she has been on the receiving end of hostility the like of which reminded her of the 1970s.

Four centuries of English interference and domination in Ireland will never be completely forgotten and the question of the border, the relationship between the Irish Republic as an EU country and the implications for trade the UK cannot just be shrugged away. Not least because someone is going to have to pay for the installation of some kind of border control. The whole business is a sorry mess and May is cornered by her dodgy deal with the DUP.

Richard Murphy also says that Liam Fox does not understand the Irish question at all.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/26/liam-fox-northern-ireland-border-eu-trade-deal-uk-brexit

Not me, Devorgilla, I wouldn't dare. It's a quote from Richard Murphy, who is an expert on Ireland as well as tax.

I see dj you got to the Little England bit before me.

Gladstone, of Liverpool statue fame, said his mission was to pacify Ireland. He didn't succeed and it was a lot simpler then, so I'm not holding my breath on this one.
Just once, I would like our Brexit negotiators to come forward with a comprehensive plan as a starting point that everyone involved could debate in a serious and intelligent way and come to an agreement.
Yes, we could propose a united Ireland. Trouble is, according to some of my friends in the South, the Republic doesn't want the North. Too expensive and too bolshie.
And then, lurking in the wings are the SNP. If Ireland is a special case, why not them? Perhaps England should secede from the rest of the UK and just Brexit on their own. Just a thought.

tegan I so agree. From day one of the debate I've been concerned about the border question and couldn't understand why it seemed to be ignored - until now with decisions needed in couple of weeks.
Those of us who remember how dreadful things were before the agreement must be horrified at the thought of a breakdown.
NI politics are very shaky and far from being in a good position for calm and sensible decision-making.

"Finally, for now, let’s note that Brexit is, almost certainly, the precursor for the end of the Union too: Scotland would be holding another referendum on leaving the UK faster than you could imagine if Brexit happens, and don’t rule out Northern Ireland pondering its future as well. To say Brexit is literally a little England view is to be kind to it.

I could, and no doubt will, expand these themes over time. But the point is, this is ultimately a decision to be taken by instinct. All big decisions in life are. And there is no doubt that in that context I have only one instinct, and that is that we must stay."

Part of an article by Richard Murphy in February 2016.

www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2017/11/26/will-ireland-really-bring-the-end-of-the-union-for-the-uk/

He has an Irish passport, and has looked into it a lot.

Or those who believed it were so easily fooled

Any warnings about anything were just grouped as 'project fear'. that's why the leave campaign was so clever.

The Remain campaigners had a responsibility to highlight issues such as this one in the face of the simplistic "take back control" approach of the Brexit spokespeople.

Having said that, it is unfortunate, to say the least, that nobody anywhere seems to have properly considered, beyond the bare bones of Article 50, what the mechanism of leaving the EU should be. I suppose this is because it ever occurred to Brussels that a country would choose to leave the European Paradise. (It hadn't occurred to me, either)

It wasn't a serious suggestion, Coolgran .

The remainers did not need to consider the problem - because if we had all voted remain the problem wouldn't have existed.

It ought to beggar belief that neither the Brexit nor the Remain campaigners gave any prominence to the Irish border issue during the referendum campaign.

It ought to, but alas it doesn't.

''''The problem would be solved by the re-unification of Ireland...''''

Methinks (possibly) solving one problem to cause many others ??
But that's best left alone.

Well I’m not worried at all - I’ve been reassured on GN by all those who voted leave that they had done all their homework before deciding to vote so one of them will surely be along in a moment with the answer.

It beggars belief that no one seems to have thought about this before the referendum - except that it doesn't ................

It horrifies me that people who voted for brexit seem to care so little for the people of Ireland and the possibility of 'the troubles' returning. I've got no idea what the solution to the problem might be but at least the EU seem to care. I'm sure I saw a quote from Johnson saying he wasn't aware that Ireland would be such a problem , but I need to find it.

The movement of people could also be a problem. A citizen of any EU country could travel freely to the Irish Republic and if we had no hard border, she/he could then go on to Northern Ireland and freely enter the UK.

I am not saying all, but at least some, of those who voted to leave were motivated to keep these EU immigrants out. How do you suppose that will happen?

It's not the movement of people that's the problem, Coolgran, it's the movement of goods. Once the UK is out of the Customs Union there will need to be a hard border between the EU (Republic of Ireland) and the UK (Northern Ireland) so that customs checks can be carried out. We can only at present freely travel goods between EU countries because we are still in the EU and therefore in the Customs Union.

We can't have a hard border in the Irish Sea because the DUP would never permit it and it is they who are propping up the tory government, so the tories aren't going to upset them.

The problem would be solved by the re-unification of Ireland...

Thank goodness we have M. Barnier. He will expect that proper plans have been made to keep the border peaceful
and has seen no plans yet with only two weeks to go.

It might derail Brexit ............ ooh that's a thought!

There was no problem when neither the UK nor the Irish republic were EU members. The problem which no-one seems to have a solution for, would arise when Eire is still in and the UK is out.